The American Revolution and modern times

This is a discussion on The American Revolution and modern times within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by SelfDefense But it is and was the greatest example of liberty any society has created and maintained in the history of the ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    But it is and was the greatest example of liberty any society has created and maintained in the history of the Earth.
    That's a pretty broad statement, and I would hardly consider 200 years 'maintaining' considering the context you are using.

    Our country is perhaps the greatest civilization the world has known. The reason for that was the unbridled free market that allowed visionaries to reach their goals unimpeded. That has stalled. Research, development, invention, and industry is what our country was built upon. Most of that is now exported.

    A nation dependent upon the 'service industry' is doomed to failure.

    I do not believe it will come to an Armed Revolution. Maybe on a small scale, to protect what those few have who can do for themselves, but the next 'revolution' will come as a rebuilding from a collapse. The ones who are strong will survive, and the ones who are not will perish.

    Yes, the U.S. will most likely resurface as a Republic, but those that are attempting to drag everybody down to their level will not be strong enough to make it through the transition.

    Perhaps I am overly pessimistic but 'good ole American Ingenuity' has made this country one of the greatest nations on Earth. Unfortunately, that ingenuity is now bridled and becoming more scarce.

    SixBravo is exactly correct in his analysis, I just come to a different conclusion. He is correct in that the American is not the same as he was 225 years ago.

    225 years ago, Americans could still take care of themselves. I think that's a pretty big difference.
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  3. #17
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kerbouchard View Post
    Our country is perhaps the greatest civilization the world has known. The reason for that was the unbridled free market that allowed visionaries to reach their goals unimpeded. That has stalled. Research, development, invention, and industry is what our country was built upon. Most of that is now exported.
    I disagree.

    Research, development and invention is alive and well. Manufacturing is exported. No disrespect for those in the manufacturing industry but the fact is that US industry is not competitive because of unions. Unions have destroyed American manufacturing with their high wages and benefits for low skilled workers.

    A nation dependent upon the 'service industry' is doomed to failure.
    Why? If that sevice is providing innovation, ideas, and invention why not export the menial tasks of manufacturing to other nations that don't have the educational opportunities we provide in ths country?

    I do not believe it will come to an Armed Revolution. Maybe on a small scale, to protect what those few have who can do for themselves, but the next 'revolution' will come as a rebuilding from a collapse. The ones who are strong will survive, and the ones who are not will perish.
    Any armed revolution will end just like Ruby Ridge and Waco. There will be no collapse. Our governmental engine is not in danger of collapse. If anything, it is stronger than ever.

    Yes, the U.S. will most likely resurface as a Republic, but those that are attempting to drag everybody down to their level will not be strong enough to make it through the transition.
    We already have a Republic. Out nation is strong. It is our responsibility, it is our duty, to pass this great nation to our posterity intact. Certainly our culture has coarsened, our morals compromised. But the essence of our Republic is no different than it was two hundred years ago. The debates and differences we have on this forum are little different than those of the Founders. The same arguments about liberty, government and perserving our nation against foreign invaders remain without unanimity of opinion.

    Perhaps I am overly pessimistic but 'good ole American Ingenuity' has made this country one of the greatest nations on Earth. Unfortunately, that ingenuity is now bridled and becoming more scarce.
    This country invented the microprocessor and the networking that is now called the internet. We have developed shuttles to space stations. We land robotic instruments on far away planets. This country has unlimited ingenuity and unbridled passion. Perhaps I am overly optimisitic but the 24 hour news cycle disseminates bad news and propaganda as it were the norm. People from every nation on Earth aspires to come to America to educate themselves in science and engineering. We are the premiere place of learning.

    SixBravo is exactly correct in his analysis, I just come to a different conclusion. He is correct in that the American is not the same as he was 225 years ago.

    225 years ago, Americans could still take care of themselves. I think that's a pretty big difference.
    I think most Americans could take care of themselves if they were required to do so. Get rid of the entitlement programs, welfare, social security, food stamps, free housing, free health care, free drugs for the unproductive and we will see how resourceful Americans are.

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    So, if the agitated start a rebellion, and God forbid, destroy the United States, what do they suggest as a replacement government? Nothing. Quite literally nothing as if anarchy was a solution to the necessary restraints required in a civilized society.
    I would say a good starting point would be the original constitution and the original bill of rights.
    Mark Twain:
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    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  5. #19
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    I would say a good starting point would be the original constitution and the original bill of rights.
    Absolutely. Agreed. However, there's a big problem with that. The Framers of the Bill of Rights were moderates. Remember what I said happens to moderates? The ones willing to compromise and listen to others are either killed outright of muscled out of the equation. A perfect example would be what happened in Russia and what it has become today. Yeltsin was somewhat of a moderate... but he was muscled out in various ways to be replaced by ::drumroll:: The former head of the FSB and a former KGB agent - Vladamir Putin.

    See, again though.. we run into a major problem. Very likely, you sir would not be one of the ones running the show after a revolution. Your ideas of freedom and democracy, while they are noble and well-grounded... They probably won't fly with the guy (or gal) who spent what would very likely be years avoiding Special Forces teams and 75th REGT Snipers to lead his army of rebels to victory over the Federal government. In all likelyhood, you could kiss both of those documents goodbye. I would say that the most likely form of government we would see would be that of a fascist regime. Maybe some false elections for the illusion of democracy. Think Germany circa 1936. He'll be king of his domain and if you didn't fight with him to get there then likely you could be counted as the enemy or a pacifist.
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  6. #20
    Senior Member Array Shadowsbane's Avatar
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    Don't forget that such a world would mean all of our nuclear weapons would now be up for grabs to the highest bidder, at least if the situation truely did get bad enough..
    Now, we must all fear evil men. But there is another kind of evil which we must fear most, and that is the indifference of good men.

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    IIRC, the see-saw battles of multiple emperors in the waning 150yrs of the Roman empire were due to many of the same ills that plague the USA, today, combined with lack of support by the army (legions).

    In the event that the USA's government hacks lose support of the military, then all bets are off.

    Until then, I agree with those who suggest that Ruby Ridge and Waco are, roughly, reasonable gauges for how resisters to authority would be put down. Understood that legal missteps sparked both attacks.

    In a larger melee, or even an organized battle for, say, a town or city, I think the gloves would come off and the hacks would order any degree of military action to put the resistance down ... at least, until they themselves were put down. But that's just a guess.

    What would really happen? Who's to say? Since the late 18th Century, the USA has seen riots from time to time, but no larger general revolt or rebellion to speak of. There is no practical guide to how it might turn out. I'm betting: bloody and quick. It almost has to be that way, lest it runs out of the control of those in control.
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  8. #22
    Distinguished Member Array SixBravo's Avatar
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    There has been a small revolt here in the US, though. Most easily forget about it. Hell I never even knew it took place until around 2 years ago.

    The Battle of Athens

    Interesting reading. You wouldn't see this happening again, though.
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  9. #23
    VIP Member Array SammyIamToday's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    There has been a small revolt here in the US, though. Most easily forget about it. Hell I never even knew it took place until around 2 years ago.

    The Battle of Athens

    Interesting reading. You wouldn't see this happening again, though.
    Not sure this is really comparable to an across the board Federal unrest situation. It's a neat thing, but I disagree that it wouldn't happen again. Of course if it did happen again, those people would be terrorists and racist gun owners. However, I still believe (perhaps I'm naive) that there are enough people out there that give a crap to do something like that again.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    These are exactly the right questions. We have the freest, most representative society in the world. Is it perfect? No. But it is and was the greatest example of liberty any society has created and maintained in the history of the Earth. Out government is second to none in all the world and that has allowed our people to strive for and achieve excellence in every field of human endeavor.
    Yes, but you're comparing it to human history. Which is rife with governments murdering millions and millions of people. Most free in that context is good, but not as good as it could be. Sadly, the people in this country aren't vigilant enough to preserve liberty.

    I would also argue that the liberty in America took a downward plunge to Federal expansion starting around 1861.

    So, if the agitated start a rebellion, and God forbid, destroy the United States, what do they suggest as a replacement government? Nothing. Quite literally nothing as if anarchy was a solution to the necessary restraints required in a civilized society.
    I don't know why anarchy gets such a bad rap. Governments do far worse. I do agree though, that is one bad aspect of a potential revolution. Frankly, we were very lucky with the American Revolution.

    Those who lament the lack of support for a revolution can't even find enough support to vote for candidates that support their views within the system. Term limits? We have term limits. They are called elections.
    That would sound a lot better to me if any candidates I voted for ever won.
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  10. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    Absolutely. Agreed. However, there's a big problem with that. The Framers of the Bill of Rights were moderates. Remember what I said happens to moderates? The ones willing to compromise and listen to others are either killed outright of muscled out of the equation. A perfect example would be what happened in Russia and what it has become today. Yeltsin was somewhat of a moderate... but he was muscled out in various ways to be replaced by ::drumroll:: The former head of the FSB and a former KGB agent - Vladamir Putin.

    See, again though.. we run into a major problem. Very likely, you sir would not be one of the ones running the show after a revolution. Your ideas of freedom and democracy, while they are noble and well-grounded... They probably won't fly with the guy (or gal) who spent what would very likely be years avoiding Special Forces teams and 75th REGT Snipers to lead his army of rebels to victory over the Federal government. In all likelyhood, you could kiss both of those documents goodbye. I would say that the most likely form of government we would see would be that of a fascist regime. Maybe some false elections for the illusion of democracy. Think Germany circa 1936. He'll be king of his domain and if you didn't fight with him to get there then likely you could be counted as the enemy or a pacifist.
    You make a sound and well articulated point. My opinion may just be wishful thinking.
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    patriot and who isn't. Its function is to obey orders, not originate them.

  11. #25
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    I think the government would find out fairly quickly if someone was seriously trying to plan a legit revolution. They would then send a Jason Bourne type to dispatch you.

    The sad thing is, I think this country has become to large and too diversified for something like this to happen. We have too many social, ethnic, and economic groups, and they're spread nationwide. It'd be very difficult to find enough like minded people to create a big stir, I think.
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    I've been pondering this as I read everyones posts, which have been great so far.

    What about the rallying effect of adversity?

    After 9/11 we rallied and got behind the same banner.

    What about when a group attempts to rally against the government, and the government and media simply paint them as an adverse group (terrorists for example). I think the majority of the country would rapidly rally behind the governments banner and squash the rebellion. I think the media would make it hard if not impossible to be successful in winning the "hearts and minds" for the rebels.
    "Wise people learn when they can; fools learn when they must." - The Duke of Wellington

  13. #27
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    Most sane people will not risk either their money or their well being (lives) unless they see something to be gained for themselves. Moreover, they won't risk their lives or jail-for long term periods- unless conditions force their hand.

    The US revolutionary war was a somewhat unique rebellion. The Americans had considerable advantages of geography over the English. Still, the English had not oppressed the people to the point of starvation, and typically, that is what it takes to get a rebellion going. So long as survival is possible, most people will not want to risk not surviving.

    In any case, Self-Defense has already made a strong case that our government is about a bazillion miles from any point at which a rational humans would even consider such a thing; both in terms of disparity of force and in terms of the ongoing democratic process which functions quite well.

    I want to talk about the latter for a little bit, because some folks lose track of it.

    Anyone of you (us) is perfectly free to run for local office. In my community of less than a couple hundred thousand there are two school boards, two city counsels, and a "Commissioner's Court (county government)" and all of these positions are non-partisan. Ordinary people can and do run for these offices, convince their friends to vote for them, and convince the general public to vote for them.

    Our judges are elected, as is our DA. While these are partisan positions, it is not too unusual for the office seekers to walk through neighborhoods seeking ballot signatures, urging voters to vote, and so on. And in fact our DA has been reelected numerous times though he is with the party which holds a minority position in this community. In other words, people do vote for the individual.

    Our State Rep, and State Senator both pounded on my door at one time or another seeking support. One of them was elected because his name was very familiar to all, as he had owned a popular car dealership. Many people personally knew him and liked him and he had a good reputation, and so he was elected.

    It gets a little less personal and direct for Federal offices, but you can participate if you wish. I recently attended a somewhat "exclusive" reception for a candidate--though the price of admission was a little steep, I certainly gained access and opportunity to show support for someone whose views I like. (And the cost was not so high that most middle income people couldn't attend if they so chose.)

    There is more to democracy than going out to vote once in 2 or 4 years.
    And in this country we all are free to work our little hearts out for whatever cause we want. We can band together in organizations and raise money, hire lobbyists, run advertisements espousing our views, put lawn signs out, and so on.

    That is, after all, exactly what the Chamber of Commerce does; NRA does; and so very many small non-profit charities do it too. They work for their cause. And it is what the Brady bunch do too. They work for their cause. We might not agree, but what is at work is democracy.
    With 300 million people there will ALWAYS be folks who are really upset about stuff. With a million laws on the books, there will always be some who get caught in crazy situations not of their making.

    But, by and large, it is still we the people who in our own sloppy and inefficient manner, run the show. There should be no talk of rebellion or anything of the sort so long as that fundamental fact holds.

    If and when it fails, when elections are not held, when ordinary people can't pound the pavement in search of signatures to get on a ballot, when there is broad disenfranchisement of the sort we have not seen since the voting rights act, until several of these things come together and the ordinary person can't eat,
    there will be no support from the average Joe for any such activity-- and there should not be.

    I almost never agree with SD. But, he and I are on the same page on this one.

  14. #28
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    The consensus of the group is that a revolt is not in the foreseeable future, and it would fail. I agree. Now lets address another issue.

    Still not saying this is about the 2A. Lets suppose there is dissent about some federal issue. Suppose a smaller group of citizens with broad vocal support were able to initiate a coup. President and Congress removed, then a call to elect new representative government with reasonable changes in Constitutional philosophy. Would America go about it's business or resist this unconventional approach to change?
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    Huh???? Seven Days in May

    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    Lets suppose there is dissent about some federal issue. Suppose a smaller group of citizens with broad vocal support were able to initiate a coup.
    I do not see this as a realistic possibility unless the coup makers were the military leaders. No other group has the muscle.

    There is a good reason why DOD has civilian leaders and cumbersome bureaucratic processes.

    But if you want to speculate about what ifs, there was a book and movie made in the 1960s. Seven Days in May. It doesn't exactly address the scenario of a successful coup, but it describes an attempt at putting one together; which fails.

    And as to the question about public reaction, again, unless people perceived their own hides as in danger, most would go along.

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Kerbouchard's Avatar
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    If you want to see a modern revolution, take a look at what happens the day after something like this is strongarmed through the 'political' process. http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...ct-2008-a.html
    There are two sides to every issue: one side is right and the other is wrong, but the middle is always evil.

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