Beware: Gun Confiscation

This is a discussion on Beware: Gun Confiscation within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by ppkheat I've previously spoken with an attorney about that very issue. Certainly, I can't seize a renters stereo because he parked on ...

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Thread: Beware: Gun Confiscation

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    I've previously spoken with an attorney about that very issue. Certainly, I can't seize a renters stereo because he parked on my grass, but I can seize his property and put it in storage for non-payment, abandonment, etc. I've done it before. My whole point was that just paying rent doesn't give you absolute rights to do whatever you want in the place you rent.
    Understood and agreed - it's just that in this case, the action of the landlord would not seem to be reasonable or lawful

    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    Back to the topic of the thread though. I think it's a very big mistake for one family member to arrest the other over this. Legally the son might be on firm ground, but as I've previously stated we don't have input from the father and I think advising the son to arrest his father is doing a disservice to both of them.
    I agree that should not be the first choice, certainly.

    But the OP is in a very tenuous position here, since he has a duty under the law to report the firearms missing, and criminal liability if he fails to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    There is too much we don't know, and hearing the story only from the son is essentially a "kangaroo court thread" against the father.

    I can tell you this, if my son were involved in drugs, alcohol, or threatened me in some manner, you bet I'd take his guns away at the first opportunity. Now if the father woke up one morning and decided he was joining the Brady Bunch, and took the sons guns, that's a different situation altogether. My point is......which situation is it?

    If the father is trying to protect his household and make it safe, I'm going to follow the signature line I see here so much, "I'd rather be judged by 12, rather than carried by 6".
    But given the Ohio law on reporting missing / stolen firearms, the solution chosen by the father means one or the other of them is violating the law.

    Surely there were better options.

    Matt
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    Matt is onto something here. Even if you never intend to turn your dad in this would be a great bluff. Show him the law and tell him it's time to involve the police. Tell him that you are not going to jail for him. Oh, and GO GET YOUR OWN PLACE!
    I would tell him that the law requires me to report the firearms missing. That is not a "bluff". It is merely communicating the facts. This puts Dad in a predicament:

    Don't report = Illegal and immoral

    Report and Lie = Illegal and immoral

    You do not have a choice as I see it, but the Ohio statutes do give you a nice opening to have a solid discussion with your Dad about responsibilities, laws, and behavior.

    I won't repeat any other ideas, although I agree with many, but it appears there was a catalyst for the event that remains undisclosed.
    Richard

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  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    The fact that he's paying rent doesn't give the son total immunity. Actually I own rent property and rent it out, just because they pay rent to me, they still have to abide by the "rules", or out they go.
    Was one of the conditions of being able to live there "no guns allowed"?

    Tough call without knowing both sides of the story. The father may have a good reason for his concerns. That does not give him the legal right to invade rental property and remove items.
    It appears that Ohio law does not gives the OP much leeway. Either he be given access to the guns to secure them, or he report them as lost/stolen.

    Either way this is a no win situation.
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  5. #34
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    The actions of the dad are probably entirely reasonable. Whether they technically violate a law is mostly irrelevant. We are talking about a father son relationship and no doubt the dad is doing what he thinks is right for his kids welfare. And somehow I think that if the kid talked to the cops, and the cops talked to dad, the end result would be that the cops seize the guns and arrest the kid... on something. (See other thread about situational application of the law; I think someone wrote the law changes with the music.)

    I found one thing in the OPs post utterly astonishing. He stated that he had a digital combo deadbolt on his room. Duh. Hey kid, you live in your parent's house. It might make sense for your guns to be in a safe, but a combo lock on your room? What are you trying to hide? Why would you need or want such a thing? What WAS wrong with mom and dad that they even gave in to such an idea?

    It doesn't matter really. You have two choices. Get out of dodge and demand that your dad return your guns, or obey your father and do things his way.

    The wiser of these choices is clearly, "Honor Thy Father and Thy Mother so your days will be long."

    I've got a real bad feeling deep down that other stuff is going on and dad is trying to protect the OP from himself, and protect himself from the OP. Under these circumstances, if the OP wants to exercise good judgment, he would ignore all of the advice here to report things as a theft; because that will only escalate the disagreement and break the family bond--which is already stretched, or so it appears.

    Where is mom in all this? Has the OP talked to mom? What is mom's opinion?
    Does she agree with the dad? If both of them are in agreement, then go with your parent's wishes and don't begin to challenge them in any way whatsoever.

    Some folks, 22 or not, 34 or not, are incapable of making sound decisions. I have a hunch (and that is all it can be because I don't know the OP) that dad has some valid concern.

    As for the OP's acquisition of a license, I don't know Ohio law. But here, anyone can call DPS and report if they believe someone should not be a license holder. I have no idea what DPS does thereafter in the way of making a determination. In this case, if there is a similar Ohio law, I bet dad would call DPS if he knew he had that option.

    A 22 year old who is spending so much of his money on guns is using poor judgment. It is different when you are working and earning, and living independently. And then, if married, you have to consider your wife's wishes and the need to spend your money responsibly.

    It sounds like dad feared the OP was assembling an arsenal that could be used for criminal purposes, perhaps impulsively, perhaps planned, and decided to put a stop to it. Good for dad.

    And kid, now go ask your dad, very politely, if the two of you could go see a clinical psychologist to help sort out your differences. You two need an independent neutral third person to evaluate what is going on and to set the family relationship back to normal.

  6. #35
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    Either way this is a no win situation.
    Dunno about 'no win' - on the surface it is pretty awkward, but Scripture clearly says that God is pulling the strings for our benefit (see Rom 8:28)... it just doesn't "feel" like it a lot of the time! For instance:

    * The son may be in complete denial over some aspect of his life (drugs/alcohol, possibly) and the falling out with the father may bring focus to the son's problem;

    * The father may find that he's living his life under his own rules, rather than God's, and the falling out with the son will show that the father's inclinations lead to lawlessness and strife rather than improved relationships;

    * Whoever is keeping the guns (if there is another person) may realize that receiving stolen property is a bad idea, and may turn from morally questionable acts in the future;

    * Whoever is keeping the guns (if there is another person) may have a ND/AD issue which scares the jeepers out of him, and causes him to be far more careful in the future;

    * Whoever is keeping the guns (if there is another person) may lose a family member due to an ND/AD, and God may use that loss to bring Himself glory. Note: God plays a deep game, and it ain't all "Precious Moments". PM me to discuss this if you're interested.)

    * The son may learn a whale of a lot here about parenting which he may need down the road;

    * The financial hardship of moving out may kill off college plans for now... and maybe the son needs some more real-world experience to let college stick when he does return (9 guns at 22? One or two and an IRA might have been more prudent, for instance); or

    * The father showed moral backbone (right or wrong, he took painful, decisive action on his beliefs when he surely knew it would have reprecussions), and maybe the son needs to see that people CAN have moral beliefs which they take difficult action on.

    Lots of possibilities - just a bit awkward at the moment is all.

  7. #36
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    Meanwhile, Hopyard, do you suggest that the OP simply ignore the law requiring him to report the firearms as missing or stolen?

    Matt
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  8. #37
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    Absolutely nothing good can come from this

    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post

    But the OP is in a very tenuous position here, since he has a duty under the law to report the firearms missing, and criminal liability if he fails to do so.

    But given the Ohio law on reporting missing / stolen firearms, the solution chosen by the father means one or the other of them is violating the law.

    Surely there were better options.

    Matt
    Absolutely no good can come from reporting this. The guns aren't missing. THe dad knows darn well where they are. The guns perhaps are not even stolen--if dad helped pay for them, or bought them, or actually owns them.

    And the kid will have a darn hard time convincing anyone that his father stole from him. After all this is taking place within a family unit. Did dad pawn them? Sell them on the street? Let's get real here.

    Folks, just because someone is 18 or 22 doesn't mean they are an adult with mature judgment. Let's applaud the dad, and not encourage irresponsible behavior.

  9. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Absolutely no good can come from reporting this. The guns aren't missing. THe dad knows darn well where they are. The guns perhaps are not even stolen--if dad helped pay for them, or bought them, or actually owns them.
    The firearms are outside of the control of the registered owner. The law would appear very clear here - the registered owner has a legal duty to report them missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    And the kid will have a darn hard time convincing anyone that his father stole from him. After all this is taking place within a family unit. Did dad pawn them? Sell them on the street? Let's get real here.
    I am being "real" here. Assuming that the OP is the lawful owner of the firearms, his father has assumed control over them with the intent to deprive the OP of possession of them. That is theft. I've yet to see an exemption in any statute that says it's OK to take property and do with it as you please if the owner is a relative.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Folks, just because someone is 18 or 22 doesn't mean they are an adult with mature judgment. Let's applaud the dad, and not encourage irresponsible behavior.
    You mean like handling a firearm that he cannot tell is loaded or not? Doesn't sound too responsible to me.

    Just because Dad is Dad does not mean his judgment in this instance is unquestionably sound.

    And he has placed his son in a very difficult spot, where he must either report the guns missing (which they certainly are from the son's point of view), or commit a crime by failing to do so.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  10. #39
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    9 guns at 22?
    Let's see here... When I was 22 I had a $300 rent (my own apartment) and at the time owned 10 firearms.

    Family heirloom revolver
    family heirloom .22 bolt action
    .22 target pistol, shot in a couple of leagues.
    over/under trap gun (I shot weekly)
    chineese 1911 for carry,
    pocket .380 when the 1911 was too big,
    10-22 for plinkin'
    AR-15 for the DCM matches
    AK-47 for no good reason
    6.5x55 mauser ($89 and mint!)

    That's probably not a disproportianate number for a youth.

    In 4 years when my mortgage will be history, I'll probably buy another 10, assuming that guns are legal in 2012.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by falcon1 View Post
    What, by the way, does your mother have to say about all of this?
    She submits to my father's judgment..

    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    For some strange reason...I feel like there is more to the story. Father takes 9 guns from you...Why?
    Rick
    There have been some issues recently - I don't always clear it with him before I make out-of-house social arrangements. Not out of defiance, just poor schedule management on my part. This isn't the first time we've had this discussion which is why i can understand if he wants to get my attention via confiscating my firearms. I just cannot fathom the foolishness it takes to try and handle and transport potentially loaded firearms that he knows nothing about without at least consulting someone who does.

    Quote Originally Posted by bando View Post
    By the way. 9 guns at 22 is very impressive. You shall have quite a collection someday.
    It was 11, but Im in the process of selling of about six of them for financial reasons.

    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    It's a fact we clearly don't have any input from the father's side of the story, so this makes the whole situation suspect to me.
    Understandably so. I would never pursue the legal route. it's just not worth getting the police involved in a family matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by hyte View Post
    His term at home may be limited or change should he complain, but what his father did was against the law.

    You cant take and remove peoples personal property without notice
    THAT's what i'm getting at - without notice. If he had been taking my cell phone or my car keys or anything of that nature, it wouldn't be much of an issue. But we're talking about GUNS here.. something that, to me, should never be used so casually to try and make a statement or get someone's attention.
    I don't believe for a moment that he really thinks i would defy him if he ordered me to turn in my firearms to him for safe keeping. Why couldn't he have talked to me first?
    I really would have been more than happy to give them to him IN A INOPERABLE STATE...


    Quote Originally Posted by boscobeans View Post
    My only thought is:

    If I had nine firearms I would have them in a SAFE for my own security as well as that of my family.

    Bosco
    Point taken. I had installed the deadbolt on my door with that aim in mind. However, in retrospect that was sorely insufficient.

    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    There is a possible solution ask your dad if you get a gun safe and allow him to keep the key if you can keep the guns at his house,that way you know where they are at and he has control over access
    That would be acceptable to me. Not my first choice, but acceptable. i will discuss that possibility with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    Um, I have some bad news for the OP:

    Ohio law requires the reporting of lost or stolen firearms.

    I'd suggest you show the code section above to your father and ask him is he expects you to go to jail for his convictions.

    Matt
    well thats just perfect!... Well at least it will get my point across. All i want is some say in how they are being stored. Beyond that he can keep them till i move out, thats fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Guns and more View Post
    Why would a father, in the interest of safety, give the guns to someone else? I'll bet there is no someone else, he has them and told you that so you didn't search.
    No there is definitely a third party. I was with my dad when he received a phone call confirming what i had already told him - the snub-nose was fully loaded. Besides, my dad inst the type to be that deceptive.
    I have a fairly good suspicion they are at my Aunt's house. She knows no more about firearms than my father, though I would say she has a little more common sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    My whole point was that just paying rent doesn't give you absolute rights to do whatever you want in the place you rent.

    Back to the topic of the thread though. I think it's a very big mistake for one family member to arrest the other over this.
    I whole-heartedly agree. My purpose for starting this thread is to A) Let off some steam and hopefully get to the point where I am thinking clearly. and B) To find some course of action/speech that can CONVINCE my father to let me further safeguard the firearms, THOUGH THEY REMAIN IN HIS CARE.
    Ultimately, yes, i want my guns back. But in the interest of getting along civilly with my dad, i am fully willing to accept not having them til i move out.
    We are only as vulnerable as we are naive.

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I found one thing in the OPs post utterly astonishing. He stated that he had a digital combo deadbolt on his room. Duh. Hey kid, you live in your parent's house. It might make sense for your guns to be in a safe, but a combo lock on your room? What are you trying to hide? Why would you need or want such a thing? What WAS wrong with mom and dad that they even gave in to such an idea?
    The lock was installed as an alternative to a $200+ safe. I fully agreed to my dad's condition at the time of installing, which was that he would ALWAYS have a key and a keycode. The lock was to keep out children or other such wandering hands, certainly not parents.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post

    A 22 year old who is spending so much of his money on guns is using poor judgment. It is different when you are working and earning, and living independently. And then, if married, you have to consider your wife's wishes and the need to spend your money responsibly.
    This is true. It was something my dad and I had discussed at length reletively recently, which led me to my decision to sell nearly all of the $200 or more guns. The only guns in intend to keep are a few 22's, a few WWII mil-surp beaters and one SP101 357 for my CCW

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    It sounds like dad feared the OP was assembling an arsenal that could be used for criminal purposes, perhaps impulsively, perhaps planned, and decided to put a stop to it. Good for dad.
    I can assure you that that is simply not the case. I am an A-student, extremely civily and morally responsible. I know my father is worried about my priorities and my safety, but i can honestly say for a fact that there is not even a suspicion of criminal activity on my part.
    We are only as vulnerable as we are naive.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    The firearms are outside of the control of the registered owner. The law would appear very clear here - the registered owner has a legal duty to report them missing.

    Matt
    Is there gun registration in OHIO???? Are rifles in Ohio registered?

    What about handguns?

    Where I live there is no gun registration and so under these same circumstances there is no particular record of ownership.

    If you are serious with this idea that the kid should turn the dad over, I would suggest that the kid go and talk to a private attorney first for additional advice. Because, I really doubt that the apparent letter of the law applies in this situation or will be applied in thituation. The more likely result will be that the kid will be viewed by the police in a very very negative way.

    And one possible outcome of the kid following your advice might just be that dad gets charged with something, but the kid gets charged with something much worse--as we don't know what is going on in that house and in the parent's mind. SO rather than take a rash decision, an attorney should at least be consulted.

    Again, I seriously doubt that any DA with some common sense would view what has occurred as theft. Remember, they have great latitude and discretion with regard to what they will and will not prosecute. They won't touch this one with a 40 foot pole.

    There is perhaps (only perhaps because I think the law you cite is inapplicable here) a serious ethical dilemma. If I were advising the dad I would suggest that he speak with an attorney both about his actions, and about what might be done to protect his son.

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slimz13 View Post
    ...Ultimately, yes, I want my guns back. But in the interest of getting along civilly with my dad, I am fully willing to accept not having them til i move out.
    THAT'S the key statement of the whole thread: your willingness to play by his rules when under his roof. Bravo!

    (And I withdraw my remark about nine guns: wish I had nine+ guns... at thirty years older!)

    You say your father references "honor your father and mother" - this suggests he claims to be a Christian. Is he a churchgoer? I would encourage you to go to his pastor and ask that he referee a discussion with your dad. Then print this whole thread out, and review it with your dad and his pastor, and ask the pastor to discuss the issues and put it in perspective for the two of you - and suggest, for instance, that the dad retrieve the weapons temporarily and let you 'safe' them in the pastor's office.

    But the critical part is that you are willing to honor your father's wishes: all else is detail work - whether or not he realizes it, you've already met his main requirement.

    Praying for your situation...

  15. #44
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    OK, some wisdom

    Quote Originally Posted by Slimz13 View Post

    I can assure you that that is simply not the case. I am an A-student, extremely civily and morally responsible. I know my father is worried about my priorities and my safety.

    Good, a dad is supposed to worry about your priorities and your safety.

    And since you are an A student, and presumably that goes with some high intellect, apply some wisdom to this situation.

    1) Do what you must do to continue to get along with dad even if you presently disagree with him.

    2) Ask yourself why your dad was worried about your priorities and your safety, and give him the benefit of the doubt.

    3) If you are unable to see his side, and give him the benefit of the doubt, consider seeking some intervention from a clinical psychologist, or perhaps a clergyperson, and even an attorney. Not to put blame or to get even, or to vindicate your position, but to make sure you are following a correct path.

    4) If you have a lot of money tied up in those guns, and it is indeed your money, you have a right to ask your dad to compensate you. Or, ask him to promise to compensate you if he feels he can not return your property within a reasonable time frame. And, when making that request, see number 3 above, and negotiate a deal in which he will agree to compensate you or return your guns after both of you have engaged in some outside 3rd party consultation.

    In other words, don't listen to the folks who want you to destroy everything by doing something rash. Continue to behave responsibly, demonstrate that you are doing so, demonstrate that you understand the reasons for the conflict and that you wish to resolve them.

    Do you have a grandparent, older aunt or uncle you trust with whom you might speak about these issues?

    I urge you in the strongest possible way to maintain a good relationship with your dad, not do anything rash, and seek a long term solution in which BOTH of you come out with some of what you want.

    E.g., You say you had been wanting to sell some of the guns. Talk to dad so you can do that. Ask his assistance to accomplish that.

    He will be pleased, you will get some cash, and any issues over guns will become diminished.

  16. #45
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    Paymeister, you are right on, Bravo too!!!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Paymeister View Post
    THAT'S the key statement of the whole thread: your willingness to play by his rules when under his roof. Bravo!

    (And I withdraw my remark about nine guns: wish I had nine+ guns... at thirty years older!)

    You say your father references "honor your father and mother" - this suggests he claims to be a Christian. Is he a churchgoer? I would encourage you to go to his pastor and ask that he referee a discussion with your dad. Then print this whole thread out, and review it with your dad and his pastor, and ask the pastor to discuss the issues and put it in perspective for the two of you - and suggest, for instance, that the dad retrieve the weapons temporarily and let you 'safe' them in the pastor's office.

    But the critical part is that you are willing to honor your father's wishes: all else is detail work - whether or not he realizes it, you've already met his main requirement.

    Praying for your situation...
    Paymeister, you are right on with all of the above advice to this young man.

    Just one minor quibble, the ten commandments are not specifically christian teaching. They appeared in scripture long before the christian era.

    In any case, your prescription about seeking guidance and assistance from the pastor is right on.

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