Beware: Gun Confiscation - Page 5

Beware: Gun Confiscation

This is a discussion on Beware: Gun Confiscation within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Hopyard This business that the guns have been stolen is a non-starter. You're not reading the entire statute I posted. Specifically, there ...

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Thread: Beware: Gun Confiscation

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    This business that the guns have been stolen is a non-starter.
    You're not reading the entire statute I posted. Specifically, there is a duty to report them missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Think about the whole picture. This young man has been living in the home all his life, he has no doubt been a dependent on his dad's income taxes which implies that dad has provided more than 50% of the kid's support.

    This means the money the kid had available to make the gun purchases with was the dad's money-- or at least largely the dad's money and encouraging the dissolution of the family.

    And clearly, dad was generous enough that the kid somehow had substantial money to invest in those guns. You can't make a case for the word "stolen" under these circumstances. It won't fly.

    You can't make a case that dad didn't have an ownership interest here. No one in their right mind is going to call that stealing, and if it went before a jury, which it never would, you will never find 12 people who will see this as the type of "missing or stolen" referred to in the statute.
    So, your employer has an "ownership interest" in all your property, do they? By your logic, your employer provided the funds you used to buy your car / firearms / TV / computer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    All of this advice to report it stolen is beyond belief. You guys aren't thinking of the consequences. One wrong word from the dad and this kid will be picked up and hauled off to a mental hospital (whether he needs it or not). As someone noted earlier, all dad has to say is that he was fearful that the kid would harm himself or someone in the house, deliberately or accidentally.
    A while ago, Dad was infallible, and the actions he took were presented by you as unquestionably in everyone's best interest.

    Now, suddenly, Dad's going to make up a false story and have the OP committed or arrested?!?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Again, instead of urging rash action that will destroy the family, urge an approach which brings about a reconciliation.
    Rash action that has the potential to damage the relationship has already taken place. But for some reason, you don't want to see that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    And to the folks who want this kid to move out, yes, many do move out at an earlier age. Often they are forced out because parent's can't abide the behavior. Other times they leave for military careers at a young age. But, vast numbers of people do live a different way. They send their kids to college, support them into young adulthood, let them live at home out of love until they finish school and find a decent job. Apparently, this latter approach is what has been taken in this household, and the kid isn't yet ready financially to move out.

    So, nothing good, absolutely nothing good whatsoever, can possibly come from advising this young man in the way some here have.
    The OP is a an adult. Your continual references to him as a "kid" and implications that he's a criminal appear rather derogatory.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    All of the evidence here is that the dad loves his son, is acting for his best interest, and you all should be ashamed for wanting to throw stones at the dad.
    What evidence? You have presumed this to be the case, but there is no "evidence" of this.

    Matt
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  2. #62
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    Move out now or continue to pay the price for your 'free' rent!
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  3. #63
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    The guns aren't missing

    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    You're not reading the entire statute I posted. Specifically, there is a duty to report them missing.
    The dad knows exactly where they are, they aren't missing in the literal sense of the word.

    The guns weren't stolen, the dad purchased them one way or another.

    What you are overlooking is that the dad also has an interest and obligation to protect himself and his family.

    Perhaps what is not being said is that the dad told his kid no loaded guns in the house and the rule was disobeyed. That is speculation only, and therefore I like the idea someone else floated, that the son invite his dad to join this thread. We need "the rest of the story."

    And yes, I'm deliberately calling this young person a kid. We don't become emotionally mature adults on our 18th birthday. Even our founders recognized this when they set age requirements for office holders.

    Think for a moment what the dialog might be like if this situation went for arbitration before Judge Judy.

    I think that somewhere along the way she'd tell the dad, "good for you." Tell the kid, "case dismissed." And tell the dad, "get help for this kid."

    Something happened. The father allowed his kid to accumulate 9 guns, then decided he had to get them out of the house. That didn't occur just out of the blue for no reason or because the dad is anti-gun. It happened due to an aspect of this whole story which we haven't heard about

    The dad didn't suddenly take the guns for no reason. The entire living situation and family arrangement makes it clear that he cares for and cared for his son.

    Something is wrong here, and instead of throwing gasoline on the fire I sure wish you all would help try to put the fire out.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by edr9x23super View Post
    So the answer to your question is how much do you value your principles and your need to protect yourself, as well as your willingness to exercise your rights? If you are willing to move out on your own, then so be it. Move out and demand your father return your property. If he has gotten rid of it, like my father did, then you know where you stand with mom and dad.
    In all honesty i've been making arrangements to move out at some point within the next 1.5-2years. I came to the realization long ago that my father and I could only get along so well as long as I was living in his house. The fact of the matter is that I don't share some of his lesser values and he doesn't share many of my major values - Values such as the need for CC or the importance of keeping the home secured and being prepared to defend it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I have not gone back to early posts to check whether or not the kid is actually paying rent. My initial recollection was no, as he is a student living at home. But in any case, don't twist a family arrangement into a commercial venture. They aren't the same thing.

    I urge the OP in the strongest way possible, preserve your relationship with your parents.
    This isn't about gun rights. It is about a son and a dad learning to get along, and a dad trying to protect his son. It isn't for the cops. It is for a pastor or a psychologist or a close relative both trust, to sort it out.

    To the OP; SON, seriously, don't do anything you are going to regret for the rest of your life. Think carefully before you act.
    I intend to. To me there are three issues being discussed here-
    1) Gun Rights - the illegitimate confiscation of another's firearms.
    2) Father-son relationship.
    3) Safety - The unsafe handling, storage and transport of a loaded firearm.

    Honestly my gun rights come in pretty low on this. I want a gun for CCW, but if I have to settle for a taser and a good knife for another year or so, i could live with that.

    I would like to preserve my relationship with my father, but in all honesty I think he's going to have to see me living on my own successfully for a few years before he really starts seeing me as an adult capable of taking care of myself. I dont intend to make any unnecessary waves in the family, and I am certiantly not going to get the police involved in a family matter. Unless things get truly ridiculous (IE he sells them and wont re-imburse me) That is the ONLY condition i can think of that would prompt me to seek legal advice beyond what I have already learned here.

    I do believe my dad has good intentions, but since my grandfather, the patriarch of the family, passed on, i've been left in a double-pickle.
    My grandfather was always the mediator between me and my father. There was no problem too big or too small to solve. Without him here my dad has no real moral or spiritual accountability in his life, as we are somewhat between churches at the moment and he has made it clear that he is, for the most part, above criticism from his children or wife. My oldest brother is 27, married, and lives in my dad's basement. There is no question my dad has a problem letting go.

    Moreover, my grandfather was always the one i turned to for solid advice. Without exception, he could always point me in the right direction. Its hard doing this without him as this is the first major problem we've had since he passed.

    Really the focus of me creating this thread and the root of my dilemma is the safety of the whole scenario. A loaded gun(s) have been forcibly taken from my control and bottom line it is my duty to make sure it/they are not capable of killing anyone. THAT is the the main problem at hand in my mind.

    Btw My rent is $200 a month + all of my personal expenses except food (Car insurance, Phone bill, Health insurance, clothes, gas, car payment/repairs, etc) My father also has made it clear that he believes the bible indicates it is immoral to move out before you are married. A sentiment I do not share, nor do i see any convincing Biblical basis for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agave View Post
    Slimz, has he mentioned your drinking in the past? Does he seem concerned about alcohol use? Did you ask him why he took the guns?
    No, i've never had a drinking problem of any kind. I do drink in moderation on occasion and he is not comfortable doing that himself. He has told me quite clearly though that it is my choice to make, so long as it is always in moderation. I honestly dont think that has much if anything to do with it.
    We are only as vulnerable as we are naive.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Something is wrong here, and instead of throwing gasoline on the fire I sure wish you all would help try to put the fire out.
    This 22-year old's married, 27-year-old brother is still living in the Dad's basement.

    I think there are some issues here....

    And I think the best thing for this family, from the facts presented here, is for the "kid" to grow a pair and live on his own.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixBravo View Post
    I would suggest showing him the code that requires reporting of stolen/missing firearms. Make it clear that you are not even willing to consider getting the police involved, but that they are in-fact missing according to the letter of the law. Then draw him up a statement saying the he acknowledges that the guns (loaded) have been removed from proper storage and that he is assuming any and all responsibility for what happens as a direct result of their displacement. Then ask him to sign it.
    Not a bad idea. That has the potential to get things headed in a more level-headed direction.
    We are only as vulnerable as we are naive.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bae View Post
    This 22-year old's married, 27-year-old brother is still living in the Dad's basement.

    I think there are some issues here....

    And I think the best thing for this family, from the facts presented here, is for the "kid" to grow a pair and live on his own.
    Hard to do when you are paying your father about %75+ of what you would be paying to live on your own. Makes it hard to accumulate money. Another reason why I am selling many of my firearms. I have spent my money on the wrong thing(s), focused in the wrong direction. I am now working to remedy that.
    We are only as vulnerable as we are naive.

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The dad knows exactly where they are, they aren't missing in the literal sense of the word.
    Right - they were in the possession of a person who couldn't even tell if they were loaded, and given to who knows who.

    That's a legitimate safety concern, which you don't seem to want to asknowledge.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The guns weren't stolen, the dad purchased them one way or another.
    And you know this how?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    What you are overlooking is that the dad also has an interest and obligation to protect himself and his family.

    Perhaps what is not being said is that the dad told his kid no loaded guns in the house and the rule was disobeyed. That is speculation only, and therefore I like the idea someone else floated, that the son invite his dad to join this thread. We need "the rest of the story."
    Yes, we do. Until that happens, we shouldn't be inventing the other side.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    And yes, I'm deliberately calling this young person a kid. We don't become emotionally mature adults on our 18th birthday. Even our founders recognized this when they set age requirements for office holders.
    You don't know him from Adam, and you're casting aspersions and implying he is into criminal activities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Think for a moment what the dialog might be like if this situation went for arbitration before Judge Judy.

    I think that somewhere along the way she'd tell the dad, "good for you." Tell the kid, "case dismissed." And tell the dad, "get help for this kid."
    I'd prefer to deal in reality, if you please. As you just stated, we don't know the whole story. So your Judge Judy scenario is at least 50% based on a situation you've imagined.


    Matt
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    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slimz13 View Post
    ...we are somewhat between churches at the moment and he has made it clear that he is, for the most part, above criticism from his children or wife...
    Child or wife criticizing him on their own say-so? Might be open for discussion. Child or wife pointing out Scripture that shows he's out of line? An entirely different story! He is under the authority of Scripture whether he acknowledges it or not, and he's supposed to be part of a local group of believers. Why? Among other things, he will occasionally need counsel and rebuke just like everyone else.

    Sounds like the whole family needs some advice from someone with some years, experience, and Scripture under his belt. Your attitude may be the best in the family, but usually the whole family is more-or-less screwed up together.

    If you're between churches, you could also look for a Christian counselor - but get one who speaks of the Scriptural principles involved rather than (ugh) 'letting you find the answer within yourself'. Try http://www.nanc.org/Directory.aspx - there are a bunch listed near you.

    I still hold with taking your dad out to talk this over if you can't find a pastor/counselor to help you, but a cup of coffee may be more appropriate than a beer. You get the idea.
    Last edited by Captain Crunch; September 1st, 2008 at 02:37 PM. Reason: Fixed quote tags.

  10. #70
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    Hmmm. 27 year old brother in the basement?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slimz13 View Post
    My oldest brother is 27, married, and lives in my dad's basement. There is no question my dad has a problem letting go.

    Is it possible that this whole business really has nothing at all to do with you or your guns? Is your dad possibly afraid of your older brother? Could your older brother have gotten them and your dad is covering?

    You are coming across as a fairly straight talking guy with some generally good sense. So, I'm starting to wonder what is really going on here--perhaps something you aren't even quite fully aware of.

    Does dad have a concern about your older brother's behavior? His wife's behavior? Young kids in the house?

    How do you know that your dad really has no knowledge of gun safety. You learned somewhere along the way. Did he teach you? Take you to the range? Did he ever have military service?

    All I am really trying to do here is convince you to keep this a family matter if at all possible, refrain from taking any action that will break family bonds, or strain family relations further.

    You have clearly stated that this is not your intention unless your dad does something truly over the top. I'm glad to hear that. And good for you!! That shows a level of thoughtfulness I initially thought was absent.

    I'm sorry to hear about your granddad.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Is it possible that this whole business really has nothing at all to do with you or your guns? Is your dad possibly afraid of your older brother? Could your older brother have gotten them and your dad is covering?

    You are coming across as a fairly straight talking guy with some generally good sense. So, I'm starting to wonder what is really going on here--perhaps something you aren't even quite fully aware of.

    Does dad have a concern about your older brother's behavior? His wife's behavior? Young kids in the house?

    How do you know that your dad really has no knowledge of gun safety. You learned somewhere along the way. Did he teach you? Take you to the range? Did he ever have military service?

    All I am really trying to do here is convince you to keep this a family matter if at all possible, refrain from taking any action that will break family bonds, or strain family relations further.

    You have clearly stated that this is not your intention unless your dad does something truly over the top. I'm glad to hear that. And good for you!! That shows a level of thoughtfulness I initially thought was absent.

    I'm sorry to hear about your granddad.
    I taught myself to shoot. Bought my own firearms with my own money. I've had no formal classes up until my recent CCW class at the local firearms "academy", which were superbly thorough in my opinion.
    I've tried to get my dad out shooting, but in all honesty he's a computer programmer by nature and by career choice. It really doesnt interest him.

    The weapon in question that he couldn't tell was loaded was a Ruger SP101 - probably the simplest weapon possible. Also it was almost new and loaded with factory ammo, so the clinking of the cartridges in the wheel are quite evident, not to mention you can see the cartridge rims and/or bullet tips from just about every possible angle of the gun.

    My older brother is a complete pushover, as is his wife. The only reason they're still living at home is because my dad has convinced him/her that he can't handle the real world & wouldnt make it by himself, which is about as far from reality as possible. Justin (my brother) is an extremely capable individual, he just never learned how to say NO to daddy.

    Thank you for your condolences btw

    more later...
    We are only as vulnerable as we are naive.

  12. #72
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    Great, have you discussed this with your brother?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slimz13 View Post
    Justin (my brother) is an extremely capable individual, he just never learned how to say NO to daddy.
    What does your "extremely capable" brother think about what your dad did, and what does he think you should do?

    Maybe you can take some advantage of his smarts to help you sort this through?

    I still sort of like Paymeister's thoughts on getting an outside neutral third party with some age, experience, and an ethical compass, to help you guys out.

    Even if your family doesn't have a pastor at the moment, that doesn't mean you can't take yourself to whatever church/pastor you like, and sit down for a talk.

    You can also seek help from any student legal services which may be available to you, and from any student counseling services which may be available to you.

    Am I right, here, it sounds like you are entering your senior year at school? Keep up the grades and the focus at school. Don't let all this get too much of your energy, and as I was once told, "all problems go away with time." Keep it in perspective.

  13. #73
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    And meanwhile, hopefully your dad will realize the position he has put you in and seek a more reasonable, thoughtful course ASAP.

    Since we're starting to figure out you're not a criminal after all.
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    And somehow I think that if the kid talked to the cops, and the cops talked to dad, the end result would be that the cops seize the guns and arrest the kid... on something. (See other thread about situational application of the law; I think someone wrote the law changes with the music.)

    I found one thing in the OPs post utterly astonishing. He stated that he had a digital combo deadbolt on his room. Duh. Hey kid, you live in your parent's house. It might make sense for your guns to be in a safe, but a combo lock on your room? What are you trying to hide? Why would you need or want such a thing? What WAS wrong with mom and dad that they even gave in to such an idea?

    ...

    I've got a real bad feeling deep down that other stuff is going on and dad is trying to protect the OP from himself, and protect himself from the OP. Under these circumstances, if the OP wants to exercise good judgment, he would ignore all of the advice here to report things as a theft; because that will only escalate the disagreement and break the family bond--which is already stretched, or so it appears.


    ...

    A 22 year old who is spending so much of his money on guns is using poor judgment. It is different when you are working and earning, and living independently. And then, if married, you have to consider your wife's wishes and the need to spend your money responsibly.

    It sounds like dad feared the OP was assembling an arsenal that could be used for criminal purposes, perhaps impulsively, perhaps planned, and decided to put a stop to it. Good for dad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    The assumption I am making is that the police are going to look very carefully at this young man. They are going to be more than curious why he had 9 guns, and they will- possibly based on something the dad says or knows- make a case. We have seen young people charged with plots for little more than possession of BB guns. They might decide to seize his computer. Who knows where this could escalate.
    ...

    (And I doubt the dad is in fact irresponsible. As this young man is an A student, maybe dad raised him right. It appears so from some of what the OP wrote. So, there is likely at least some poor judgment on both sides. You don't want that in the hands of the cops. Pity the poor mother if both end up in the slammer.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    All of this advice to report it stolen is beyond belief. You guys aren't thinking of the consequences. One wrong word from the dad and this kid will be picked up and hauled off to a mental hospital (whether he needs it or not). As someone noted earlier, all dad has to say is that he was fearful that the kid would harm himself or someone in the house, deliberately or accidentally.
    ...

    All of the evidence here is that the dad loves his son, is acting for his best interest, and you all should be ashamed for wanting to throw stones at the dad.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think that somewhere along the way she'd tell the dad, "good for you." Tell the kid, "case dismissed." And tell the dad, "get help for this kid."

    Something happened. The father allowed his kid to accumulate 9 guns, then decided he had to get them out of the house. That didn't occur just out of the blue for no reason or because the dad is anti-gun. It happened due to an aspect of this whole story which we haven't heard about

    The dad didn't suddenly take the guns for no reason. The entire living situation and family arrangement makes it clear that he cares for and cared for his son.

    Something is wrong here, and instead of throwing gasoline on the fire I sure wish you all would help try to put the fire out.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Is it possible that this whole business really has nothing at all to do with you or your guns? Is your dad possibly afraid of your older brother? Could your older brother have gotten them and your dad is covering?

    You are coming across as a fairly straight talking guy with some generally good sense. So, I'm starting to wonder what is really going on here--perhaps something you aren't even quite fully aware of.

    Does dad have a concern about your older brother's behavior? His wife's behavior? Young kids in the house?

    How do you know that your dad really has no knowledge of gun safety. You learned somewhere along the way. Did he teach you? Take you to the range? Did he ever have military service?

    All I am really trying to do here is convince you to keep this a family matter if at all possible, refrain from taking any action that will break family bonds, or strain family relations further.

    You have clearly stated that this is not your intention unless your dad does something truly over the top. I'm glad to hear that. And good for you!! That shows a level of thoughtfulness I initially thought was absent.

    I'm sorry to hear about your granddad.
    Well, given you most recent highlighted comments, and your past insinuations (quoted above), it seems to me you have prematurely and quite probably unfairly judged the OP (and I think you're coming to realize this).

    Had I said what you said about a total stranger, and then come to feel the way you mention in the highlighted section, I'd be tendering an apology forthwith and with appropriate humility.

    Your milage may vary there, though. It's ultimately up to you.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

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