Beware: Gun Confiscation

This is a discussion on Beware: Gun Confiscation within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by MattLarson Well, given you most recent highlighted comments, and your past insinuations (quoted above), it seems to me you have prematurely and ...

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 234567 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 94

Thread: Beware: Gun Confiscation

  1. #76
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,524

    Too soon to know

    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post
    Well, given you most recent highlighted comments, and your past insinuations (quoted above), it seems to me you have prematurely and quite probably unfairly judged the OP (and I think you're coming to realize this).

    Had I said what you said about a total stranger, and then come to feel the way you mention in the highlighted section, I'd be tendering an apology forthwith and with appropriate humility.

    Your milage may vary there, though. It's ultimately up to you.

    Matt
    I have no way to know if I have prematurely judged the OP. Yes, things are looking better in some respects, but we still don't have the dad's side of things. We don't know what motivated the dad's actions.

    I have a lot of experience dealing with folks, and one thing I have learned is that you can never actually know someone through e-mail.
    You only get a true sense of the person when you have met and talked face to face.

    I am certainly NOW willing to give the OP the benefit of the doubt, but I am still very concerned about the family situation.

    Just because someone is a gun owner doesn't necessarily mean they are together. Just because dad grabbed the guns doesn't necessarily mean the OP precipitated things. Just because the OP might have actually caused an issue, doesn't mean the dad was necessarily right. And so on.

    We still know too little. And I still urge the OP to keep cool, not act rashly, not take any action that would make things worse in any way, and seek outside assistance from the sources I mentioned.

    If I find out in a few weeks that all is O.K., I will happily issue an apology. Right now is still too soon and I don't know enough.

    But I am encouraged by what was written.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #77
    Distinguished Member Array bandit383's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    1,681
    Quote Originally Posted by Hotbrass View Post
    Slim, you need your own crib.
    Chuckling...now I wonder if this reaches the level of apology?

    Hopyard...I think your sincere thoughts are good ones...hopefully they can work it out. But knowing as one ages, the mind (and body) is less flexible. So I suspect the flexibility will be on Slim's. I think Slim has quite a predicament...and I haven't read the why or father's explanation/justification. Just that he took the weapons. Let us know how it turns out Slim and good luck in sorting it out. It sounds like there are far more "issues" than just the weapons...in that light, I would seek some sort of counseling...and surely not from the internet.

    Rick

  4. #78
    VIP Member Array sgtD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Kansas
    Posts
    2,292
    Get out and get your guns back.

    End this insanity now before you end up like your married brother and his wife; 27 yrs old, still feedin at the trough and taking heavy doses of guilt and torment for doing so. I can't imagine being in such a situation.
    When you've got 'em by the balls, their hearts & minds will follow. Semper Fi.

  5. #79
    Member Array Jason Rogers's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Lorton Virginia
    Posts
    211
    The theft of a firearm is a felony. Whomever he transfered them too has recieved stolen goods.-Jay
    "The price of freedom is the willingness to do sudden battle anywhere, any time and with utter recklessness." -Robert A. Heinlein

  6. #80
    Senior Member Array flagflyfish's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Fairbanks, Alaska
    Posts
    993
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Rogers View Post
    The theft of a firearm is a felony. Whomever he transfered them too has recieved stolen goods.-Jay
    +1
    "These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier
    and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the
    service of his country; but he that stands it now, deserves the
    love and thanks of man and woman."

    -- Thomas Paine (The American Crisis, No. 1, 19 December 1776)

  7. #81
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,524

    Yes bandit, you are right on with this comment

    Quote Originally Posted by bandit383 View Post
    It sounds like there are far more "issues" than just the weapons...in that light, I would seek some sort of counseling...and surely not from the internet.

    Rick
    Absolutely. Some counseling and "surely not from the internet," is what is needed.

    I would add, and maybe not from just one source. For example, an attorney might be able to advise on the issue of reporting missing or stolen guns, but not at all on the family situation. A psychologist might be helpful with the family situation, but get totally spooked by the gun overlay in the discussion. A pastor might or might not be qualified to deal with complex interactions, but be helpful on the ethical dimension of this problem the OP has.

    The good thing is that our OP has lots of options, and maybe being in school, some access to resources.

  8. #82
    Member Array Slimz13's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Mantua, OH
    Posts
    135
    Just as a recap, I'm 22, halfway through my B.A. of Mechanical Engineering at Akron U, though I'm only going part time this semester.

    I forwarded my dad the section of Ohio code making it clear that I am breaking the law by not reporting this to the police. It's been a pretty busy weekend so we havent discussed it yet, but I will keep you posted.

    I have a great deal of homework due early this week, that combined with the fact that I think we could both use another day or two to cool of and start thinking clearly leads me to postpone any major action for another day.

    Thank you for all taking an interest in a young pup's plight.
    We are only as vulnerable as we are naive.

  9. #83
    Distinguished Member Array sniper58's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,631
    Quote Originally Posted by MR D View Post

    OP needs to report the guns missing...

    ... Dad has had at least one loaded firearm transported from the home (Probably in violation of State law) - unless he is leo or CHL holder there is no way he could legally transport a loaded handgun in a motor vehicle in Ohio, if any of the long guns were loaded he definitely violated law in transporting...

    OP needs to have a serious chat with Dad - Ohio law is not 'friendly' to people who violate gun laws in ignorance......
    +1! This should be the starting point of a calm ADULT discussion. Does anyone really think the prosecutor will chalk this one up to a "family matter" if the guns are later stolen (again) and used in a crime? The OP will be behind a legal 8-ball with very little recourse. His defense of "I didn't want to get my dad in trouble..." won't fly.

    Yes, the guns were stolen. Dad knows where they are, but it doesn't alter the fact the guns were stolen. Many criminals know where their loot is too - and that stuff is also stolen.
    Tim
    BE PREPARED - Noah didn't build the Ark when it was raining!
    Si vis pacem, para bellum
    ________
    NRA Life Member

  10. #84
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Tucson
    Posts
    2,736
    I have read this thread with interest. I offer no advice to the original poster for the simple reason that we have only one side of the story. No one can provide an informed decision without hearing the adversarial position.

    I do have a few observations. First, the idea the guns were stolen or are missing is nonsense. The title the OP put on the thread used the word confiscated. Confiscated means the items were seized by an authority. It does not imply either stolen or missing. The father is clearly the authority. Further, the OP provided the combination to his room, which is evidence of trust and a implied understanding the father could enter the room in his own house. This is clearly not a landlord/tenant arrangement. This is a father/son subsidized living agreement.

    Second, though the father has not contributed to this thread, we can deduce he is a good man. He allows one son to live in the basement with his wife (why his son would want to live there is a different topic) and he allows his other son to rent a room at below market value. More than that, the OP is an A student, which implies he has had a good upbringing.

    Thrd, and perhaps most importantly, the OP hasn't hinted as to why his father confiscated the guns. As to the safety of the 'uneducated' handling firearms I have but one thing to say. It is not that difficult. Many here have taught their pre-school children. Even someone who has never been indoctrinated to the 'four rules' knows by common sense not to point a gun at someone and pull the trigger.

    The only posts that make the slightest bit of sense to me is Hopyard's and his advice to find a third party to moderate. From the OP's admission that used to be the grandather. (My condolences.) It seems all parties are in need of sage advice, which is certainly not to be provided in an internet gun forum.

    I will keep this family in my prayers.

  11. #85
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,524

    Extortion

    Quote Originally Posted by Slimz13 View Post

    I forwarded my dad the section of Ohio code making it clear that I am breaking the law by not reporting this to the police. It's been a pretty busy weekend so we havent discussed it yet, but I will keep you posted.
    Before you say another word, or write another word here, consider the following definitions of the crime of extortion: Pay attention to the use of the phrase "under color of official right." And pay attention to the phrase, "obtaining property by "fear."

    Extortion (Black's Law Dictionary - 6th Edition) is defined as:
    "The obtaining of property from another induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right."

    EXTORTION - The use, or the express or implicit threat of the use, of violence or other criminal means to cause harm to person, reputation, or property as a means to obtain property from someone else with his consent. USC 18

    The Hobbs Act defines "extortion" as "the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right." 18 U.S.C. S 1951(b)(2).

    These are sort of first cousins to the crimes OJ did in Vegas. He used fear to retrieve property and it made no difference that it may have been (and probably was) his own property to begin with. You simply aren't allowed to do that.

    You are treading on really thin ice here when you suggest to your dad that if he doesn't do what you want you will have no choice but to report his "theft" to the police. Your purpose here is clearly to intimidate him into doing something he should perhaps not do, and that son is perilously close to felony extortion, if not in fact actual extortion.

    (It would be different if you said nothing and went to the police, but we both know how that will turn out, and it won't be good for you. So it is all empty bs threats anyway.)

    On a non-legal basis, if your dad has any stuff down there (and I think there's more there than you give him credit) he won't be the least bit intimidated by your informing him of your "obligations." Instead, he may be quite angered by what he will see as challenging his parental authority with implicit threats.

    He might just beat you to the police if he is now more concerned about something you have done than before, and concerned by your willingness to send a threat up the line, and he might now have some justification for feeling that he should quickly expel you from the home.

    Before you threaten someone with going to the police to report a crime, be darn sure you know what you are talking about, and that you aren't committing a crime with the threat that you will go to the police. It is one thing to say, "stop the loud music or I'll call the cops."
    It is another to say, "give me 'whatever'--though it is against your wishes, or I'll call the cops--- all the while knowing the purpose of the statement is to intimidate the other into turning over property they otherwise wouldn't give you.

    This action on your part was a very unwise move, and you need to be paddling that boat backward at warp speed.

    As Self Defense clearly pointed out, it is nonsense that the guns are missing or stolen, or that there is a danger your dad will mishandle them. So the statute you are relying on seems inapplicable.

    And you still haven't told us why dad told you he took them. That is a big red flag. It suggests you aren't the victim in this.

    BTW, a reasonable action if you are inclined, might be to have an attorney file a civil suit demanding the return of your guns. Or, to save money, go to small claims court and sue for their value.

    I'd not put two cents on a prediction about what the judge might do, as there is stuff going on here you might not want the judge to know about. And doing so would be stupid for other reasons as well.

    Think through consequences before you act!!!!! And stop digging your hole deeper.

  12. #86
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,857
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Before you say another word, or write another word here, consider the following definitions of the crime of extortion: Pay attention to the use of the phrase "under color of official right." And pay attention to the phrase, "obtaining property by "fear."

    Extortion (Black's Law Dictionary - 6th Edition) is defined as:
    "The obtaining of property from another induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right."

    EXTORTION - The use, or the express or implicit threat of the use, of violence or other criminal means to cause harm to person, reputation, or property as a means to obtain property from someone else with his consent. USC 18

    The Hobbs Act defines "extortion" as "the obtaining of property from another, with his consent, induced by wrongful use of actual or threatened force, violence, or fear, or under color of official right." 18 U.S.C. S 1951(b)(2).
    Wow.

    That's the most misrepresented piece of code I think I have ever seen posted.

    Your interpretation is utterly flawed.

    Let's try it again.

    EXTORTION - The use, or the express or implicit threat of the use, of violence or other criminal means to cause harm to person, reputation, or property as a means to obtain property from someone else with his consent. USC 18
    Obeying the law by reporting the guns missing certainly isn't "other criminal means". You're stretching this so far it'll cover the Arctic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    These are sort of first cousins to the crimes OJ did in Vegas. He used fear to retrieve property and it made no difference that it may have been (and probably was) his own property to begin with. You simply aren't allowed to do that.
    And again, you rush to accuse the OP of being a criminal, even though you have acknowledged not only that you don't know the full story but also that you may well have been wrong in your initial judgments.

    Frankly, I am amazed that you continue to call someone you don't know a criminal, based on the flimsiest of suppositions in a situation where you admit you are not in full possession of the facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    You are treading on really thin ice here when you suggest to your dad that if he doesn't do what you want you will have no choice but to report his "theft" to the police. Your purpose here is clearly to intimidate him into doing something he should perhaps not do, and that son is perilously close to felony extortion, if not in fact actual extortion.

    (It would be different if you said nothing and went to the police, but we both know how that will turn out, and it won't be good for you. So it is all empty bs threats anyway.)
    Complete nonsense. And another implication that the poster is somehow involved in criminal activity.

    Truly, have you no shame whatsoever?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    On a non-legal basis, if your dad has any stuff down there (and I think there's more there than you give him credit) he won't be the least bit intimidated by your informing him of your "obligations." Instead, he may be quite angered by what he will see as challenging his parental authority with implicit threats.

    He might just beat you to the police if he is now more concerned about something you have done than before, and concerned by your willingness to send a threat up the line, and he might now have some justification for feeling that he should quickly expel you from the home.
    Again, the unfounded, baseless accusation that the OP is involved in criminal activity.

    Is there not some scriptural basis for not judging strangers?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Before you threaten someone with going to the police to report a crime, be darn sure you know what you are talking about, and that you aren't committing a crime with the threat that you will go to the police. It is one thing to say, "stop the loud music or I'll call the cops."

    It is another to say, "give me 'whatever'--though it is against your wishes, or I'll call the cops--- all the while knowing the purpose of the statement is to intimidate the other into turning over property they otherwise wouldn't give you.

    This action on your part was a very unwise move, and you need to be paddling that boat backward at warp speed.

    As Self Defense clearly pointed out, it is nonsense that the guns are missing or stolen, or that there is a danger your dad will mishandle them. So the statute you are relying on seems inapplicable.

    And you still haven't told us why dad told you he took them. That is a big red flag. It suggests you aren't the victim in this.
    No, you have assumed that the OP is a criminal, time and again - even though you once again admit that you don't know the full story.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    BTW, a reasonable action if you are inclined, might be to have an attorney file a civil suit demanding the return of your guns. Or, to save money, go to small claims court and sue for their value.

    I'd not put two cents on a prediction about what the judge might do, as there is stuff going on here you might not want the judge to know about. And doing so would be stupid for other reasons as well.

    Think through consequences before you act!!!!! And stop digging your hole deeper.
    Let me see if I have this right.

    You claim reporting the guns missing is "extortion", but you counsel the OP to file a civil suit over the same issue?

    Wow.

    Frankly, your post just amazes me.

    The whole extortion business is just a side note - anyone can make a mistake, and your interpretation of the law you cited is clearly flawed.

    But what stuns me is your return to making utterly baseless allegations that the OP is involved in criminal activity. This is doubly amazing to me because you have clearly acknowledged that you do not know the full story.

    Since you're big on quoting the law, you might want to examine the laws regarding libel.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  13. #87
    VIP Member Array tns0038's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    2,118
    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I know its not what you want to hear, but its his house; therefore, his rules. It stinks, but thats the price of free rent.

    I wouldnt be happy about the way he went about it myself. I'd offer to store them offsite yourself, that way you know where they are. Perhaps though there is more to this story than we know.

    Sorry 'bout your luck.
    I agree.

    BTW... I moved out from home, when I was 18. I worked two part time jobs, to pay for it, but it was worth it.

    And I was a full time student

  14. #88
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,524
    Quote Originally Posted by MattLarson View Post

    Wow.That's the most misrepresented piece of code I think I have ever seen posted. Your interpretation is utterly flawed.
    Obeying the law by reporting the guns missing certainly isn't "other criminal means". You're stretching this so far it'll cover the Arctic."
    Response: Obtaining property by inducing fear is extortion. As I wrote, it would be one thing to go to the police directly, and it is quite another to issue the implicit threat. But, going to the police directly will bring on many many problems that this young person and his family don't need.


    Matt: "And again, you rush to accuse the OP of being a criminal,"

    RESPONSE: "Not at all, but I think he scared the crap out of his dad in some way and that is why the dad confiscated the guns."


    Matt: "Frankly, I am amazed that you continue to call someone you don't know a criminal,"

    Response: "Your words and not mine."

    Matt: "Truly, have you no shame whatsoever?"

    Response: "Truly you are bent on causing an escalation in this father son problem instead of seeking a peaceable solution."

    Matt: "Is there not some scriptural basis for not judging strangers?"

    Response: Irrelevant, the dad made the judgment that the guns need to be out of the house. If you want to talk in terms of scripture, that is clearly within the dad's authority under G-d. See comments by Paymeister earlier.


    Matt: "Let me see if I have this right.
    You claim reporting the guns missing is "extortion", but you counsel the OP to file a civil suit over the same issue?"

    Response: No, simply reporting the guns missing, though unwise in this circumstance, is perfectly O.K. Threatening to report them missing is the deliberate inducement of fear, and that is something else which is NOT O.K.

    I did not counsel him to file a civil suit, I discouraged that, but pointed out that such an action would be preferable to issuing empty threats that might be construable as extortion.

    Matt: Frankly, your post just amazes me.

    Response: Ditto

    Matt: But what stuns me is your return to making utterly baseless allegations that the OP is involved in criminal activity. This is doubly amazing to me because you have clearly acknowledged that you do not know the full story.

    Since you're big on quoting the law, you might want to examine the laws regarding libel.

    Response: I know enough to make it plain to me that something happened in that house, the dad is likely a good enough guy, and running to the police will be a losing proposition for this young man.

    Further, threatening his father with running to the police will be a losing proposition for this young man. And threatening is a crime.

    Further, following your advice will destroy the family.

    Further, since you sarcastically wrote that I am fond of quoting the law, I ask you, who first posted that stuff about an obligation to report to the police, and put that forth as sound advice--when in fact it plain stinks to high heaven.

    Finally, if the original poster is still reading this--as I wouldn't be surprised if dad cut off his internet by now--you need to cool the confrontational stuff with your dad. That is the bottom line.

  15. #89
    Senior Moderator
    Array MattInFla's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    4,857
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Matt: "And again, you rush to accuse the OP of being a criminal,"

    RESPONSE: "Not at all, but I think he scared the crap out of his dad in some way and that is why the dad confiscated the guns."
    Do you have some factual basis for this, or is it purely invention on your part?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Matt: "Truly, have you no shame whatsoever?"

    Response: "Truly you are bent on causing an escalation in this father son problem instead of seeking a peaceable solution."
    Had you actually read any of my posts, you would have noticed that I most emphatically did not advocate any particular course of action, and I expressed hope that this could be worked out man-to-man with both parties taking to one another.

    But much like the pure speculation above, you seem to have imagined my position here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Matt: But what stuns me is your return to making utterly baseless allegations that the OP is involved in criminal activity. This is doubly amazing to me because you have clearly acknowledged that you do not know the full story.

    Since you're big on quoting the law, you might want to examine the laws regarding libel.

    Response: I know enough to make it plain to me that something happened in that house, the dad is likely a good enough guy, and running to the police will be a losing proposition for this young man.

    Further, threatening his father with running to the police will be a losing proposition for this young man. And threatening is a crime.
    Again, can you supply any actual proof, or this merely more supposition and invention on your part?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Further, following your advice will destroy the family.
    See the above in re my "advice" as you have imagined it.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  16. #90
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,524
    ME: "Further, threatening his father with running to the police will be a losing proposition for this young man. And threatening is a crime." Even lawyers with long years of experience have tripped themselves up by using careless language in demand letters.

    Matt:
    "Again, can you supply any actual proof, or this merely more supposition and invention on your part?"

    ME: The young man wrote in a post that he let his father know that he might feel obligated to report the "missing or stolen guns" to the police if they aren't returned. That is an implicit threat. It means, "give me my guns or I'll go to the cops." His own statement is the proof in answer to your question above, that a threat was issued.

    Moreover, as discussed it is a threat he can not carry out as a practical matter, should not carry out as a practical matter, and in any case there are far better ways to deal with the conflict.

    There are many situations in which one person believes that another improperly has control or possession of property or money. These are not all criminal matters, as the word "stolen" implies.

    There is a civil tort called "illegal conversion." It doesn't rise to the level of criminal action--"stolen." Who gets the money or property either gets settled in mediation, in an arbitration hearing, or determined by a judge. No one goes to jail.

    Instead of threatening his dad, the O.P. should be cooling things, seeking reconciliation. [And threats of one sort or another might really be the reason dad got spooked and took the guns, though that is speculation only, it is a reasonable speculation given we haven't heard either a denial from the OP or any explanation as to why the OP thinks the dad acted as he did.]

    If he truly wants to pursue some sort of legal resolution (unwise but his choice), there would be nothing at all wrong with filing for compensation in the small claims system. At least, a neutral party would get into the matter, this business of flying accusations of stealing his guns would get resolved, there would no longer be any potential (not that I think there is) of him violating some reporting requirement as the issues will be before a court.

    Then, maybe the dad and son can get on with repairing their relationship. Or, maybe, if some other intervention is needed the judge will at least provide some commentary to that effect or possibly some direction.

    I don't particularly like the above approach, but if no one is available to help these two folks, it is possibly a somewhat low key approach. In fact, the two could even shake hands on the proposition that we will let a judge decide before hand. Handled diplomatically, it could become a win win deal.

    [It has been said that telling someone you will sue is a threat of a threat. It is one thing to go to the court house and file, and have the papers served, and quite another to make demands "or else I'll sue." Caution is needed with such language. ]

Page 6 of 7 FirstFirst ... 234567 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Gun Confiscation
    By TomEgun in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 110
    Last Post: December 25th, 2010, 05:08 AM
  2. Gun Confiscation
    By WVConcealed in forum General Firearm Discussion
    Replies: 95
    Last Post: March 1st, 2009, 02:01 AM
  3. Confiscation
    By wjh2657 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 32
    Last Post: September 17th, 2008, 02:53 PM
  4. Gun confiscation
    By Pro2A in forum Law Enforcement, Military & Homeland Security Discussion
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: September 30th, 2007, 10:50 PM
  5. San Francisco gun ban and confiscation
    By S.O. Interceptor in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: January 7th, 2005, 11:07 PM