Where do we get our Rights?

Where do we get our Rights?

This is a discussion on Where do we get our Rights? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I hope this is the correct place to post this. It seems some of the folks hare believe that out rights are derived from the ...

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Thread: Where do we get our Rights?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Where do we get our Rights?

    I hope this is the correct place to post this.

    It seems some of the folks hare believe that out rights are derived from the government. Personally I believe that we are born with our rights. Then after we realized that we needed to band together in order to survive we agreed to give up some of these rights to the group.
    I don't agreed with the group that believes we are granted rights by the government. The government gets its rights from the people. They do this by either the free will choice of the people or by force. The government can only give up something that we ourselves have givin to it in the first place.
    Government has no Unalienable rights. It is not born with rights.

    "Unalienable: incapable of being alienated, that is, sold and transferred." Black's Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition, page 1523:

    Unalienable Rights Defined
    UNALIENABLE. The state of a thing or right which cannot be sold.
    "You can not surrender, sell or transfer unalienable rights, they are a gift from the creator to the individual and can not under any circumstances be surrendered or taken. All individual's have unalienable rights."

    This I believe was the thinking of our founding fathers.

    Michael


  2. #2
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    It seems some of the folks hare believe that out rights are derived from the government. Personally I believe that we are born with our rights.
    Somehow I think this is directed to me.

    I believe our rights are God given and we created a government to protect those rights. And for over two hundred years we have successfully protected those rights and corrected those (by legislation) that were an abomination, such as slavery.

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    Distinguished Member Array Tally XD's Avatar
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    +1 for SelfDefense

    However, I bet this thread gets locked pretty soon.
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    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tally XD View Post
    +1 for SelfDefense

    However, I bet this thread gets locked pretty soon.
    Why would the thread get locked? Doesn't this question go to the root of the problem?

    Michael

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    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    Somehow I think this is directed to me.

    I believe our rights are God given and we created a government to protect those rights. And for over two hundred years we have successfully protected those rights and corrected those (by legislation) that were an abomination, such as slavery.
    I agree...
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    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    +1 to SelfDefense also. I always thought the Declaration of Independence says it the best:

    ...that they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness...
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
    -- Benjamin Franklin

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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    ...folks hare believe that out rights are derived from the government. Personally I believe that we are born with our rights...
    The answer is a little of both or neither depending on the paradigm shift.

    In many ways, it does not matter. Even if you are right, and I think you are philosophy speaking, you would still want the government to make it legal. After all the philosophy, theology, legalese, jargon, and etc. there is one simple fact. No matter how you aquired the permission slip, it sure makes it easier to apply the right if the authority asking the questions recognizes the slip as legit.

    Like the question, what came first the chicken or the egg. A good question, but no right answer can be proven absolute at this time.

    Quote Originally Posted by SelfDefense View Post
    ...I believe our rights are God given and we created a government to protect those rights. And for over two hundred years we have successfully protected those rights and corrected those (by legislation) that were an abomination, such as slavery.
    +1 well written (plagiarized, paraphrased, etc).

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    The answer is a little of both or neither depending on the paradigm shift.
    In many ways, it does not matter. Even if you are right, and I think you are philosophy speaking, you would still want the government to make it legal. After all the philosophy, theology, legalese, jargon, and etc. there is one simple fact. No matter how you aquired the permission ship, it sure makes it easier to apply the right if the government recognises the slip as legit.

    Why not ask what came first the chicken or the egg.

    In effect that is the question i asked. I believe that the government was created by people therefor all rights were individually held.
    When we first formed groups for safety or to be able to hunt better we had to form some sort of government. We realized that for the group to function the individual had to give up some of the rights that they had.
    This ruling party can be what we call a government. It could be a gang. Even a religion.
    We disagree on what right the individual should retain. Maybe thats why different groups have come up with different forms of government.

    Michael
    Last edited by Captain Crunch; December 17th, 2008 at 02:13 AM. Reason: Fixed quote tags.

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    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    ...We disagree on what right the individual should retain. Maybe thats why different groups have come up with different forms of government...
    I hear ya, but be it by majority or through the actions of a tyrant, once the powers that be deside a Right is not a Right, but a privlage, given the real effect on the individual, it does not matter where that Right originated.

    However, I have said in the past that 2A protect the right to bear arms, and via a similiar argument I'm stating, was told that a piece of paper can't defend / protect anything.

    I believe 2A does protect a right, grants a right, acknowldges a right, or does nothing at all, desiding on how you want to view it.

    If I were to put it the best way I could, no long winded semantics, Basic needs.

    I don't thing there is a Right that you or born with to bear arms. I do believe in the core right to defend one self, and I believe that is what 2A addresses. Now where we get that Right from is simple, it is a need. Like food, water, shelter. Just self-defense is a need. I'm liberal enough to believe every able and law abiding citizen should be granted the means to aquire food, water, shelter, and a firearm.



    Where do we get our Rights? Basic needs. IMHO.

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    Member Array Rightwing's Avatar
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    +1 Jon....Endowed by our creator, our forefathers knew it. Too many of us have forgotten it. Merry Christ Mas to all!
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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Some people feel they have the right to rob ,cheat,steal,and kill,so do we allow them to indulge in those rights,no we have to set guidlines that outlaw rights that have a negative impact on society,
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    Member Array gdalton's Avatar
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    The Constitution and the Bill of Rights were established to define and limit the role of government as applied to our "God given" rights. In other words the Constitution and the Bill of Rights do not give us rights but rather restrict the government from interfering with them. Although many of the restrictions placed upon the government have been completely ignored and due to the lack of education on the subject few people realize it.

    As for laws restricting behavior found to be unsavory like stealing and cheating the legislative branch is defined in the constitution and is given the task of creating such laws and the judicial branch is assigned the task of assuring these laws are not beyond the scope of government as defined by the constitution.

    Or to put it more simply, the Constitution governs the government not the people.
    Last edited by gdalton; December 17th, 2008 at 09:49 AM. Reason: Simplification
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    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdalton View Post
    and the judicial branch is assigned the task of assuring these laws are not beyond the scope of government as defined by the constitution.
    No such assignment exists. The concept of judicial review was given to the Court by the Court. It has no Constitutional basis. It is not the role of the judicial branch. That Power exists solely with the People.

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    Member Array XDFender's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdalton View Post
    The Constitution and the Bill of Rights were established to define and limit the role of government as applied to our "God given" rights. In other words the Constitution and the Bill of Rights do not give us rights but rather restrict the government from interfering with them. Although many of the restrictions placed upon the government have been completely ignored and due to the lack of education on the subject few people realize it.

    As for laws restricting behavior found to be unsavory like stealing and cheating the legislative branch is defined in the constitution and is given the task of creating such laws and the judicial branch is assigned the task of assuring these laws are not beyond the scope of government as defined by the constitution.

    Or to put it more simply, the Constitution governs the government not the people.
    'zackly!!!

    To quote Justice Scalia in Heller: "...it has always been widely understood that the Second Amendment, like the First and Fourth Amendments, codified a pre-existing right. The very text of the Second Amendment implicitly recognizes the pre-existence of the right and declares only that it “shall not be infringed.” As we said in United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U. S. 542, 553 (1876), “[t]his is not a right granted by the Constitution. Neither is it in any manner dependent upon that instrument for its existence. The Second amendment declares that it shall not be infringed . . . .”

    I just don't see what is so hard to understand about that.

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanis View Post
    The answer is a little of both or neither depending on the paradigm shift.

    In many ways, it does not matter. Even if you are right, and I think you are philosophy speaking, you would still want the government to make it legal. After all the philosophy, theology, legalese, jargon, and etc. there is one simple fact. No matter how you aquired the permission slip, it sure makes it easier to apply the right if the authority asking the questions recognizes the slip as legit.

    Like the question, what came first the chicken or the egg. A good question, but no right answer can be proven absolute at this time.



    +1 well written (plagiarized, paraphrased, etc).
    no...if you really want the government invovled in "rights" the ONLY involvement you want is for them to specifically make certain acts illegal; like the initiation of force. You don't want them spelling out what is legal, only what is NOT legal. Once you allow them to say what is legal, it is no longer a right.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

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