Am I legally obligated?

This is a discussion on Am I legally obligated? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I've read the law text before, and I usually know for sure a place that's off limits. First time I've ever run into this sign, ...

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Thread: Am I legally obligated?

  1. #46
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    I've read the law text before, and I usually know for sure a place that's off limits. First time I've ever run into this sign, and to me it has no international meaning...other than those who post it not following the law and attempting to get off cheap with a simple sticker. I say to them, get with the program or get out!

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  3. #47
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    HotGuns...you there?
    I am now.

    You may think it interesting...and maybe confusing
    Yep...it's a typical "we aren't sure response".

    I will address their comments...

    It kinda depends on where the sign is posted.
    Thats nice and clear ain't it? "It kinda depends"...

    If it is posted in an enumerated prohibited place (ACA §5-73-306 #1-18) or a private home (#19), then yes persons with Arkansas concealed handgun carry licenses must abide by it.
    First of all, you already know what an "enumerated prohibited place" is,so that's not really part of the question. You also already know that you don't need a sign on a private home, so that is contradictory.

    If the sign, without the correct sizing and wording (from ACA §5-73-306) is posted, then the sign does not comply with the concealed handgun carry law and does not appear to become a prohibited place under ACA §5-73-306(19).
    The only criteria for the sign that I have ever seen posted anywhere was that it be readily recognizable from a distance of 10 feet. "readable " is also in various places. IMO, saying that the sign is not readable, because it doesn't have words to read, is a stretch.

    The sign brings up questions. Does that bar police officers on-duty from carrying in there? Do they intend to keep out CHCL holder or just gang bangers?
    Police Officers are exempt from all limitations that CHL holders have, whether on or off duty. That is in the statutes and it specifically addressed. I personally don't worry about it, I have a badge and an ID if anyone ever questions the fact that I am toting. Thus far, no one has.

    It is also possible to be charged with Carrying a Weapon under ACA §5-73-120. That would be up to the prosecutor.
    As always it is up to the man whether he charges you are not.
    Be advised though, if you are found guilty of ANY gun related offense, you just lost your CHL forever.

    Do what you want RamRod. If you want to take these somewhat vague and non binding responses as "black and white" and are willing to take it to court with you if you do get charged with something, thats up to you.

    Me personally, I wouldn't do it. How you could argue that a sign like the one posted doesn't get the point across is beyond me. Everyone knows what it means. There at Cox its probably standard procedure to post the place due to corporate policy and they may not care, but legally you are putting yourself at risk by carrying there.

    And something else you must understand that you probably have already heard before.

    Do you know what the law means?
    Whatever the Judge says it means.
    That is reality.

    Let you conscience be your guide.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  4. #48
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Do you know what the law means?
    Whatever the Judge says it means.
    That is reality.

    Let you conscience be your guide.
    Bring Ram Rod back down to earth shall we? A conscience has been on my Christmas list for a long time.....oh, I usually get it, but it seems to find greener pastures shortly after the new year....seems so many more are in need then. I appreciate you shedding more light on the black and white.

  5. #49
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    I've dealt with the clerks at the ASP on several issues over the years. Often times they have less of a clue than I do and lots of times you'll be more confused than you were before you asked.

    After dealing with them, I don't have a lot of confidence in them. I argued once about reciprocity with the states, they argued about it, I showed them the new law, and they said "oh..we didn't know that". It took them a full year to update the website. I argued with them about the law when it was amended to be able to carry in Restaurants, they said if it sold more than 10% of gross income in alcohol you couldn't carry, I faxed them the statue that said 60% they said, "oh we didn't know that". Every restaurant that sells alcohol sells has more than 10 % of sales meaning that you couldn't carry anywhere.

    The thing is, if you don't know, you wont know that they are putting out bogus info. Ask Gary Slider, the dude that owns and operates Handgunlaw.com, he got some bogus info from them not too long ago that he had to retract.

    I know they try hard, but things change and like most other government operations they are the last to know.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  6. #50
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    ...all this is as clear as mud.

  7. #51
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    Just curious, and maybe I missed it... What is the penalty for violating a posted business in Arkansas?

    In Missouri it's not a criminal act and all they can do is ask you to leave. May be fined $100 on 1st offense if you don't leave when asked. That's it.
    -Bark'n
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  8. #52
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JonInNY View Post
    I think we need a test case. I wonder if anyone will volunteer. It would keep the lawyers and courts busy for awhile, and maybe a precedent could be set.
    Many of us in Okla are waiting on a test case here. Even with plain language laws it does not mean that the courts will interpret the written word the way it was meant when written.

    I have asked different instructors here and get different answers. The cops I have asked dont want to comment on it unless its only them and me present at the time.
    I allwas ask them what would happen if they were called instead of the store owners askin me to leave first? Would I be charged?

    Michael

  9. #53
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Interestingly enough, I just looked up a copy of the Arkansas code. It must have been an older version since the ACA §5-73-306 I found only goes up to paragraph (18). So, it seems somebody chose to add a paragraph (19) specifically to address the issue of what constitutes a proper sign; that requires that the words "carrying a handgun is prohibited" must be printed and readable at ten feet:
    5-73-306.Prohibited places.

    (19)(A)Any place at the discretion of the person or entity exercising control over the physical location of the place by placing at each entrance to the place a written notice clearly readable at a distance of not less than ten feet (10′) that “carrying a handgun is prohibited”.
    That seems straightforward to me. Readable (as opposed to merely understandable) at ten feet, and quoting to indicate the precise words necessary to comply.

    Now I go back to the OP and see that's what you already quoted, except the quote marks hadn't come through so that's why they didn't stick out in my mind. RamRod, I'd say you have every reason to have a clear conscience here. That still doesn't mean you couldn't find yourself on the wrong side of a courtroom, alas.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  10. #54
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ram Rod View Post
    To decipher or obey the intent of this sign?
    In Kansas.... yes. There is "only one sign" in Kansas that a legal carrying conceal carry licensee has to pay attention to, law says "a sign approved by Atty Gen's office", and that's the sign. All others, are not legal and do not pertain to a CCL. Someone can always ask you to leave, and if you don't , be charged with trespassing, but no firearm's offense or anything that threatens your CCL unless they have that sign up... then it is.

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    The purpose of communication is the passing of information. The mere fact that you're posting this thread about the meaning of a clear symbol is proof enough, IMO, that you understand the intent of the message being communicated. So does everyone else, I'll warrant. A circle with a slash though it is universally recognized as meaning "No," with the object in the center of the circle being the subject of the ban. It's simple and clear. I'd bet that every court would recognize it as successfully communicating a simple message. Whether it's a legal requirement to follow such signs is dependent on your state law.
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  12. #56
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    In FL, signs mean nothing. When visiting other states, be sure to know the appropriate laws regarding signage...unless illegal, concealed is concealed.
    I would have to say that this sign clearly reads a message, but I'd want to clearly understand the particular state law on this matter prior to an armed trek through this establishment.

    Stay armed...legally...stay safe!
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  13. #57
    VIP Member Array obxned's Avatar
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    The intent of the sign is obvious - don't give them another red cent of your hard earned and heavily taxed money!
    "If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan

  14. #58
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    Whatever else it may or may not mean, it's clear that revolvers, rifles, and shotguns are permissible.

    The response that said that you might win in court is the correct answer. I'd certainly be willing to make the case that that sign is neither written nor readable, as there are no words at all. On the other hand, a court is likely to employ the "pishtosh principle" - "Pishtosh! You knew perfectly well what that sign meant. Thirty days, with twenty suspended, five hundred dollars fine with two hundred and fifty suspended, conditioned on your good behavior for a period of one year, plus court costs, for trespassing." I'd take an appeal, because it doesn't matter whether you knew what the sign meant, the sign doesn't meet the criterion established by the statute. But I'll tell you, they're apt to say, "pishtosh" right up to the point where the state supreme court denies your petition for writ of appeal.
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  15. #59
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by obxned View Post
    The intent of the sign is obvious - don't give them another red cent of your hard earned and heavily taxed money!
    It's the principle of it all. We go through many issues to remain among the law-abiding....and yet a 'blanket' sticker that does not follow the state's mandated criteria, and in essence not totally legal should put us at risk? I know...I know......nothing is ever fair and there are those who play by the rules, and those that don't care. I'm a poet and didn't know it!

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array JonInNY's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by user View Post
    I'd certainly be willing to make the case that that sign is neither written nor readable, as there are no words at all.
    I think I would take isuue with that, on a semantic level.

    One of the definitions of "written":
    mark or trace on a surface

    One of the definitions of "readable":
    clear: easily deciphered

    I would maintain that this sign is "readable" and understandable by almost every human being on the earth. I'm not saying that it's legal though, just readable.
    "Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch; Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
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