Is freedom waning?

This is a discussion on Is freedom waning? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Just heard an argument on the news about a company in Ohio that is terminating people who smoke tobacco. Now these people were not doing ...

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Thread: Is freedom waning?

  1. #1
    Member Array Bryan's Avatar
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    Is freedom waning?

    Just heard an argument on the news about a company in Ohio that is terminating people who smoke tobacco. Now these people were not doing it on the companies time or property. The two pundits were arguing on weather this was a slippery slope or just to protect against rising health costs. Neither brought up that tobacco is still legal or the pursuit of happiness guaranteed by the constitution or Illegality of companies to monitor and control the lives of their employees. Whats happening here is an attack on freedom on every front. The right for government to pry into your personal information to fight against terrorism or other threats. It seems that are little republic is starting to bust at the seems. I wonder if it started with our education system where most are taught not to question authority. Vidulents starts at home.
    (soapbox off)
    -Diplomacy: The art of saying nice dogie until you can find a rock.
    -The truth is a three edged sword.
    -Your brain is your primary weapon everything else is just a tool.
    -When the only tool you have is a hammer then everything starts to look like a nail.

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  3. #2
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    I heard of this ploy some time ago Bryan and it pi$$es me off bigtime.

    If what folks do in their own time - and in if you will the privacy of their own homes then - what the heck!! If it's legal - to hell with what employers think they like. Holy crap - this stuff just goes too damn far sometimes.

    Be handy if (unlikely) the whole workforce smoked and then decided - ''OK then - we'll stay away''!!

    There are many attacks on freedoms - all too many that are absurd too. If my excercizing of my freedom, does not negatively impact on others then where is the problem?

    On a broad basis, freedoms are being seriously eroded in many areas.
    Chris - P95
    NRA Certified Instructor & NRA Life Member.

    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


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    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    i think its a slippery slope the health care cost is just a excuse

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    Member Array Bryan's Avatar
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    My point is nobody is arguing freedom or constitutionality. There is no slope here its wrong. They just don't have the ACLU to protect them like gay rights. I guess I just don't believe in victimless crime that's all. (eat the cheasy burger) :wavy hands:
    -Diplomacy: The art of saying nice dogie until you can find a rock.
    -The truth is a three edged sword.
    -Your brain is your primary weapon everything else is just a tool.
    -When the only tool you have is a hammer then everything starts to look like a nail.

  6. #5
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    Array HotGuns's Avatar
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    That'll be a lawsuit that they lose.

    I dont smoke, never have and never will. I cant stand it.

    Whatever you do in YOUR house is your business. This company is firing people for participating in a legal practice in their own home on their own time and justifing it because of rising health costs. Thats a lawsuit waiting to be won right there.

    My company got on a kick a few years ago and wanted to raise insurance prices to cover the costs of smokers. After some negotiations, it was agreed to have those that smoke pay and extra 25 bucks a month for insurance costs.
    Thats seems like a more sensible alternative to me.

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    Reason i say its a slippery slope is where does it stop?

    you smoke your canned
    you drink your canned
    you like coke over pepsi you canned
    you eat meat bye bye


    See what im saying years ago we would laugh this off not now..

    Liek some of the places not wanting to insure you becuse you have certain problems Like diabeties .. hey it runs in your family you got it nothing youve done wrong but now you company wants to crank up you health ins..

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    Member Array fortysomething's Avatar
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    A company in MI did the same some time ago. A terminated employee sought legal advice (including from the ACLU, I believe) and were told they had NO case.

    Where will this stop? Fast food, sweets, coffee, GUNS?

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    Ex Member Array Phil Elmore's Avatar
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    It is getting bad -- and it's going to get worse. Self-defense is being equated with vice. Keeping the money you've earned is being equated with greed. Rampant government intervention in our lives is increasingly justified as "for our own good" or, more accurately, for the good of "the community." Leftist politicians are gaining ground through a shrewd and relentless propaganda campaign waged with their willing and sympathetic accomplices in the major media. Those who value liberty, who believe in being victors rather than victims, are an endangered species and the next election cycle will see much tyranny unleashed in the US in the name of "change."

    Yes, liberty is waning. Yes, our country is dying.

    Damn, I'm feeling pessimistic tonight.

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    This has been going on for years and will only get worse.

    Many companies surcharge employees who are in risk catagories and incur higher insurance premiums. As noted some companies will terminate employees for high risk behaviors. The employees in this case were given 18 months to quit smoking or be terminated.

    There is no law to prevent this type of action by a company.

    I have had to go through "risk assessment" interviews. So far shooting and concealed carry haven't made it on the screening questions. I have no doubt that at some point they will though.

    If you want a glimpse into our future Gattica and Demolition Man provide two stellar examples of where we are headed.

    In Gattica we see people placed in jobs based on their DNA profile. In Demolition Man we see all pursuits not deemed "healthy" banned.

    Enjoy.
    -Scott-

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    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    OK.....they did it for "HEALTH CARE COST" reasons, right????
    Proven FACT- homosexual activity is detrimental to ones health, homosexual men have much shorter life expectancies (<40 years I think) and very expensive health problems during their lives. I would love to see the ACLUs reaction to the firing of a gay man because of health cost reasons.

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    F350

    Good point & what about weekend and "after work" sports related injuries that cause employees to miss valuable work time due to sports related injury?

    Terminate all employees that participate in all amateur sports related activities? I'd like to see THAT happen.
    Liberty Over Tyranny Μολὼν λαβέ

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    Senior Member Array tanksoldier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan
    Neither brought up that tobacco is still legal or the pursuit of happiness guaranteed by the constitution or Illegality of companies to monitor and control the lives of their employees
    The term "pursuit of happiness" is found in the Declaration of Independence. The DoI has no force of law... frankly it was a propaganda piece for ears in Enland.

    Also "pursuit of happiness" means the ability to do the work that makes you happy... life, liberty and the right to choose your job. Unless the employer is a government agency there's no loss of freedom. Consider this issue from the employer's point of view: what about their right to employ the people they want on the job? Everybody wants free markets and capitalism, until it works to their disadvantage.
    "I am a Soldier. I fight where I am told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

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    Senior Member Array glock21guy's Avatar
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    I am very much opposed to smoking. But if it is legal, and you are not doing it, whatever it is on the job, the employer has no say in it. Yes if you are hurt outside of work that could affect your job performance. What about a car accident? Or falling down a flight of stairs. Should you be fired?

    If companies were more loyal to the employee, the employee would be more willing to think of the company. At least I would be.

    At the places I have worked I ultimately was the one paying for my health insurance. About the only thing I was getting from the company was a "better" rate due to the fact we get a group rate.

    It is only a matter of time before we find ourselves at the bottom of the slope.
    Aaron

    If you don't protect your self, who will?

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    Unfortunately, I believe we'll all see much more of this type of behavior in the next several years. As a smoker, it concerns me personally, but there are more widespread concerns as correctly pointed out above.

    Insurance companies, governments, health care providers, businesses, and the others isolate "at-risk" behaviors or "groups" and attempt to quantify the costs and risks associated with those behaviors and groups. It has been done for many years. This serves a generally positive public policy of having the "guilty" carry the financial burden of their own behavior.

    An example is age rated automobile insurance, whereby teenage boys from age 14 to 25 incur larger automobile insurance premiums. Tough on the boys? Of course, but statistically, the correct answer from a resource consumption perspective. As a teen, my behavior (speeding tickets, etc.) caused my insurance rates to skyrocket. I paid my own premiums, and as the rates shot up, my driving improved, because I could not afford to continue that behavior and still drive.

    As an AARP member now, would I like the age, sex and risk rating of insurance to be eliminated so that I would share and pay the cost of teenage or poor risk drivers? No.

    Having said that, the spread of limitations and tethers on "behaviors" through legal means is concerning. Smokers (ah yes, everyone's favorite "beating horse"), are a prime, well publicized example. More common, and more problematic behaviors may make the "societal cost" of smoking pale in comparison:

    To wit - obesity. A more widespread, and very costly behavior in terms of long-term health care cost allocations. With the alarming increase in incidence of excessive weight, there is now a faint drumming in the background that we don't have "personal" responsibility" for our own body weight. Sue McDonalds, Frito-Lay, have the medical insurance pay for the weight loss surgery.

    The list is increasing....and will only get louder and more insistent.

    We all need to guard against the slippery slope, and protect the underpinnings of our country and society. But, we need to do it in a consistent and fair manner which will strengthen and improve it, rather that divide it to be more easily conquered.

    Richard

    NRA Life Member

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    "You may think I'm pompous, but actually I'm pedantic... let me explain the difference."

    "Carry the battle to them. Don't let them bring it to you. Put them on the defensive and don't ever apologize for anything."

  16. #15
    Senior Member Array dpesec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan
    My point is nobody is arguing freedom or constitutionality. There is no slope here its wrong. They just don't have the ACLU to protect them like gay rights. I guess I just don't believe in victimless crime that's all. (eat the cheasy burger) :wavy hands:
    Bryan, the problem is that it's a private company, and the company can do what it wants as long as it's done without discrimination. Now, if the congress critters would add smoking to the list of protected classes it would be a different story.
    Dave

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