Biker Accidents "Graphic"
This is a discussion on Biker Accidents "Graphic" within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Stormtruck2
I wonder how many people on here who say they will never ride a bike have lost a family member or ...
June 25th, 2009 02:35 PM
VERY well said,.
Originally Posted by Stormtruck2
I have to admitt that I haven't read this whole thread,. I already had a good idea on what would be said,. And from reading this last page I was right..
If you believe statistics,.. You'll see that people that survive a motorcycle accident (wearing a helmet) end up most of the time paralized,. And, quite often the helmet is what breaks there neck. The neck isn't made to support the extra weight of the helmet. Also, you'll find that riders with helmet's one are more likely to get in the accident to start with, they see less, they hear less and they have this false sense of security (because they have a helmet) that they are just fine,. Riders that don't have the helmet on are more alert to what is going on around them, better chance of avoiding the accident to start with. Most of the time it is milliseconds that makes or breaks the accident, and with better vision and better hearing, sometimes that is all it takes.. Yes,. Be safe, Yes, if wearing a brain bucket makes you feel better,.. DO SO,... But stop bashing those that don't,. It is a choice that we all make,. Same as carrying a defensive weapon,.. Many people think it is unsafe, and people do get shot accidently,.. No reason to join the forces of those that say "gun's should be banned?".. It is freedom we seek, freedom to chose if we want to carry or not, freedom to wear a helmet or not,. . Please stop the bashing..
June 25th, 2009 05:59 PM
Sorry, that's completely ignorant BS. Read the Hurt report. Please cite the stat about "people that survive a mc accident wearing a helmet end up most of the time paralized".
1) Try to show an actual peer reviewed study that says helmets break necks - not the guy at the motorcycle shop. If an impact has enough force to break one's neck - see #2
2) The head can't withstand impact with cement or other hard objects on it's own, even at low speeds - I have an uncle who has permanent brain damage from falling off a bicycle without a helmet
3) the view is greater than a human's peripheral vision, plus between turning one's head and the visor size you can see well past directly behind you for complete 360 deg vision.
4) Helmets, plus ear plugs, cut down on the roar of wind noise entering the ear and thus allow you to hear changes in noise levels better such as horns, sirens, etc
5) False sense of security, my butt. A helmeted rider is more probably a trained rider, fully aware of the risks involved, and takes measures to mitigate, but never eliminate those risks.
6) Helmeted riders, and even more so, riders with full gear are less prone to dehydration, heat/cold, and exhaustion on long rides, less exposed to debris or insects/animals on the roadway/in the air, and more comfortable and thus are able to pay more attention to the task at hand.
Not bashing those that don't, but not about to let this drivel go unchallenged. You're right, it is a choice, but people should make an informed choice and those that choose not to wear protective clothing shouldn't expect everyone else to pay for their choice.
Professional riders suit up every time and don't complain about any impedance to their reaction times, vision, or enjoyment when traveling over 100mph with 20 - 30 other riders on the track trying to pass them with only inches separating them.
June 25th, 2009 06:55 PM
Now that isn't nice,. You really should be nice,.
Originally Posted by nedrgr21
Here is some good reads for you,.. Enjoy them..
Helmet Laws kill Bikers
Helmets, Helmet Laws, and Motorcycle Statistics
We all know that statistics are phony,. They are made to look good for the party that is trying to make there point,. (look at the media on guns) Even with someone that is neutral on the subject, sometimes things get added that sways it one way or the other.. I know of one friend that did indeed get killed when the full face of his helmet broke his neck,... Happened in the early 80's,. I've read of many others that had things happen like broken necks too,. Even if the helmet was a miracle tool that protected your head,. You hit a car at 55 mph,. Your body is broken from top to bottom and your head is perfectly kept by the "graces of the helmet"... Would you want to live your live out with someone having to feed, change your diaper, and you can do nothing other then think?.. I wouldn't want to live that way,. When your time is up, your time is up.. God is in charge and will take you when He is good and ready,. Helmet or no helmet,. To think we can outsmart our Creator by a "Helmet" is just crazy,.. So you think your way, and I'll think mine,. And I will not insult you in the process,. Maybe you'll figure that out too..
June 25th, 2009 07:21 PM
Wow, I feel my Wendy's Jr Bacon Cheeseburger coming back up. That should make one think about the consequences and learn to pay attention to your surroundings as someone else may not be. Also, just because the odometer says 190, doesn't mean you should prove it.
Never argue with idiots - they'll drag you down to their level then beat you with experience.
June 26th, 2009 01:10 AM
Those aren't studies - they're the opinion of the uneducated.
I can wear a helmet with earplugs while on a running bike (at idle) and have a conversation w/o yelling. The guy in "Helmet Laws Kill Bikers" offers no study to support his opinion. Is he actually insinuating that riding a motorcycle w/o a helmet in the rain would improve one's vision? - with thousand of raindrops pelting one's eyeballs and face at 70 mph. Helmets only weight about 3 #'s and add comfort to the ride. I've ridden cross country on a bike with no problems. If you can't hold your head up with a helmet, you got serious problems.
"Helmets, Helmet Laws, and Motorcycle Statistics" - Really, that supports my argument, not yours. His whole gripe is about the "social burden" issue, yet he admits helmets decrease injuries/death. He twists the numbers, switching from "receiving appropriate care" to, in his comments, not receiving care. He contradicts the other guy's opinion, stating that a helmet helps riding in the rain.
No one is claiming that helmets are some sort of magic talisman that will keep someone uninjured/alive under all circumstances - nothing can.
Seriously, do you have any studies/evidence to support your claims?
Last edited by nedrgr21; June 26th, 2009 at 02:58 AM.
June 26th, 2009 01:23 AM
Here's a summation of the Hurt Report:
Dr. Hurt, with a team of investigators (all of whom were motorcyclists themselves) examined every nearby motorcycle accident scene, day or night, during a twenty-four-month period — collecting information on over 900 accidents, interviewing 2,310 passing motorcyclists, and studying 3,600 police reports from the area of each accident.
The study took place throughout the Los Angeles basin, including nearby canyons and up to the Angeles Crest — thereby including urban as well as rural conditions, e.g., incidents of motorcycles striking animals.
Each accident was studied individually with approximately 1,000 data elements — and included taking photos, examining wreckage, measuring skid marks, and interviewing survivors. The investigators revisited each wreck site at the same time on the same day of the week that the accident had occurred along with the same weather conditions — to measure traffic and interview motorcyclists who successfully negotiated the same circumstances.
Summary of Findings [I've deleted the ones not applicable to the discussion, but please feel free to follow the link. Actually, I encourage you and anyone else who rides or wants to ride to read the summary and take an MSF course, no matter how long you've ridden.]
Throughout the accident and exposure data there are special observations which relate to accident and injury causation and characteristics of the motorcycle accidents studied. These findings are summarized as follows:
4. In single vehicle accidents, motorcycle rider error was present as the accident precipitating factor in about two-thirds of the cases, with the typical error being a slideout and fall due to overbraking or running wide on a curve due to excess speed or under-cornering.
11. Weather is not a factor in 98% of motorcycle accidents.
14. Conspicuity of the motorcycle is a critical factor in the multiple vehicle accidents, and accident involvement is significantly reduced by the use of motorcycle headlamps (on in daylight) and the wearing of high visibility yellow, orange or bright red jackets.
16. The median pre-crash speed was 29.8 mph, and the median crash speed was 21.5 mph, and the one-in-a-thousand crash speed is approximately 86 mph.
17. The typical motorcycle pre-crash lines-of-sight to the traffic hazard portray no contribution of the limits of peripheral vision; more than three-fourths of all accident hazards are within 45deg of either side of straight ahead.
24. The motorcycle riders involved in accidents are essentially without training; 92% were self-taught or learned from family or friends. Motorcycle rider training experience reduces accident involvement and is related to reduced injuries in the event of accidents.
25. More than half of the accident-involved motorcycle riders had less than 5 months experience on the accident motorcycle, although the total street riding experience was almost 3 years. Motorcycle riders with dirt bike experience are significantly underrepresented in the accident data.
26. Lack of attention to the driving task is a common factor for the motorcyclist in an accident.
27. Almost half of the fatal accidents show alcohol involvement.
28. Motorcycle riders in these accidents showed significant collision avoidance problems. Most riders would overbrake and skid the rear wheel, and underbrake the front wheel greatly reducing collision avoidance deceleration. The ability to countersteer and swerve was essentially absent.
34. Motorcycles equipped with fairings and windshields are underrepresented in accidents, most likely because of the contribution to conspicuity and the association with more experienced and trained riders.
35. Motorcycle riders in these accidents were significantly without motorcycle license, without any license, or with license revoked.
37. The likelihood of injury is extremely high in these motorcycle accidents-98% of the multiple vehicle collisions and 96% of the single vehicle accidents resulted in some kind of injury to the motorcycle rider; 45% resulted in more than a minor injury.
40. The use of heavy boots, jacket, gloves, etc., is effective in preventing or reducing abrasions and lacerations, which are frequent but rarely severe injuries.
43. Seventy-three percent of the accident-involved motorcycle riders used no eye protection, and it is likely that the wind on the unprotected eyes contributed in impairment of vision which delayed hazard detection.
44. Approximately 50% of the motorcycle riders in traffic were using safety helmets but only 40% of the accident-involved motorcycle riders were wearing helmets at the time of the accident.
45. Voluntary safety helmet use by those accident-involved motorcycle riders was lowest for untrained, uneducated, young motorcycle riders on hot days and short trips.
46. The most deadly injuries to the accident victims were injuries to the chest and head.
47. The use of the safety helmet is the single critical factor in the prevention of reduction of head injury; the safety helmet which complies with FMVSS 218 is a significantly effective injury countermeasure.
48. Safety helmet use caused no attenuation of critical traffic sounds, no limitation of precrash visual field, and no fatigue or loss of attention; no element of accident causation was related to helmet use.
49. FMVSS 218 provides a high level of protection in traffic accidents, and needs modification only to increase coverage at the back of the head and demonstrate impact protection of the front of full facial coverage helmets, and insure all adult sizes for traffic use are covered by the standard.
50. Helmeted riders and passengers showed significantly lower head and neck injury for all types of injury, at all levels of injury severity.
51. The increased coverage of the full facial coverage helmet increases protection, and significantly reduces face injuries.
52. There is no liability for neck injury by wearing a safety helmet; helmeted riders had less neck injuries than unhelmeted riders. Only four minor injuries were attributable to helmet use, and in each case the helmet prevented possible critical or fatal head injury.
53. Sixty percent of the motorcyclists were not wearing safety helmets at the time of the accident. Of this group, 26% said they did not wear helmets because they were uncomfortable and inconvenient, and 53% simply had no expectation of accident involvement.
55. Less than 10% of the motorcycle riders involved in these accidents had insurance of any kind to provide medical care or replace property.
June 26th, 2009 02:34 AM
Originally Posted by Tmag
this is a great course. the sad part is that a great many of these bike accidents are NOT the bikers fault. Too many cagers feel to safe in their cars they don't pay enough attention to whats going on around them. My one close call was on the interstate I had and 18 wheeler merge into my lane where I was riding, almost got crushed, was able to get over and slow down enough to avoid him though.
There's nothing wrong with shooting so long as the right people get shot. -- Dirty Harry Calahan
June 26th, 2009 01:16 PM
WOW.. That is allot of words,. Have to admit I didn't read it just scrolled to see where it finally ended..
Like I mentioned before,.. Statistics lie, we all know this,. People change things around so they meet what they want to try and prove,. I don't believe them anyway,. But what I do know is I've rode thousand and thousand of miles with and without a helmet,. I question if you have ever rode without a helmet,. So tell me how you know that riding without a helmet in rain is more dangerous then with? When you have a helmet on and the windshield fogs over (they all do) then how do you see? My Harley has a nice windshield, it don't fog over, and I don't get rain pelting me even at 70,.. In fact just two weeks ago I was in a really nasty storm in New Mexico and rode for many miles just fine,. If you have a helmet you would have to lift the shield to see,.. As far as hearing goes, are you telling me that you can hear just as good with a helmet on? When I used to wear one I couldn't talk with the person sitting behind me,.. How would I hear better for that car that is to close, or screeching tires behind us?? And you cannot say that you can see the same with a helmet on,. you have a oval lookout instead of the God given natural vision,. I'm not arguing that if your head hits the pavement that your going to get hurt,. No-one can say that there head is harder then a helmet,. What I'm saying is preventing the accident in the first place will be done easier without a helmet on,. (I think everyone should agree on this) and also, if I was to get in an accident that was serious enough to do bodily damage (paralized) I wouldn't want to be a burden to those around me,. Like I mentioned, I had a friend that was killed by a helmet when his neck was broken,. Doctors said if he didn't have a helmet on it is possible he would have survived with some broken bones and scars for sure. (no-one knows for sure).. How many accidents that are avoided will never be known,. We don't just miss getting hit because of hearing or seeing out the corner of your eye and say,. WOW.. Better put that on the chart??? ...
We all take a chance getting out of bed and not slipping and hitting our heads (without a helmet) on the bedpost or in the shower,. That alone could kill you.. We need to not be paranoid or we take the pleasure out of what we're doing in life.. Have you even seen the shows on TV about people that are so afraid of getting hurt they will not leave there house? I'm not trying to convince anyone not to wear a helmet or not,. That isn't my concern,.. I could care less,. I ride with allot that don't, and I ride with allot that do,. We all have to make up our mind on what our choice is,. (freedom to chose) I just get tired of people that think they know everything, but are just being one sided and believing what others have pieced together for statistics that are false to start with.. Stop bashing others and get out and enjoy your scoot however you chose to ride,.. I will be as soon as I get out of work,.. :-)
June 26th, 2009 02:30 PM
More often than not the 4 wheel veical is at fault Bottom line.
A Native Floridian = RARE
IT'S OUR RIGHTS>THEY WANT TO WRONG
June 26th, 2009 02:41 PM
Great website, and definitely sobering; Bikes are more dangerous that cars, just a matter of what risks you're willing to live with....
Aim Low, don't be Disappointed, and Reach your Goals.
June 26th, 2009 03:44 PM
That figures - reading is a good thing. Ignorance is bliss, right?
Originally Posted by TucAzRider
Yes, I've ridden short distances w/o helmet and don't care for it. Riding in rain more dangerous - Common sense. If nothing else, you have a greater chance of having an accident where you'd need one.
I question if you have ever rode without a helmet,. So tell me how you know that riding without a helmet in rain is more dangerous then with?
No, they don't all fog over - there's anti-fog films.
When you have a helmet on and the windshield fogs over (they all do) then how do you see? ... If you have a helmet you would have to lift the shield to see,..
I can hear sirens, horns, screeching tires, and everything else I need to hear.
As far as hearing goes, are you telling me that you can hear just as good with a helmet on? And you cannot say that you can see the same with a helmet on,. you have a oval lookout instead of the God given natural vision,.
A person's eyes are on the front of one's face and peripheral vision and shifting one's eyes only goes so far to the side. I can, and am saying I can see the same - actually even better b/c there's no wind or debris forcing my eyes shut.
I seriously doubt the doctor had all the information (detailed accident info) to make that call - much more likely he was just repeating a myth/possibility he heard in the past. Doctors have a bad habit of believing their expertise spills over to everything else. If the impact, after a portion of the force was absorbed by the helmet, was enough to break his neck, it was probably also enough to fracture his skull and/or break his neck w/o the helmet.
Like I mentioned, I had a friend that was killed by a helmet when his neck was broken,. Doctors said if he didn't have a helmet on it is possible he would have survived with some broken bones and scars for sure. (no-one knows for sure).
June 27th, 2009 05:42 PM
Do you send prospective shooters to a page that shows graphic images of gunshot wounds?
Originally Posted by ErikGr7
How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual; as a trustworthy & productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised and taken care of.
June 27th, 2009 06:09 PM
Well -- I'm reconsidering buying a Ducati now. :(
The photos didn't gross me out, they just made me sad. I see now that even if going the speed limit, covered in Kevlar, driving defensively, it's other drivers that I can't control who could very well lead to an accident. Not sure I want to risk it now...especially with a child who depends on me.
I don't see loaded firearms as nearly the same danger, for those who make the argument. Someone not paying attention, or talking on a cell phone, or walking into me or whatever won't suddenly get me shot. I think.
This sucks. I was so eager for a bright red Superbike! :(
Don't frisk me, I am the weapon.
Sig Sauer P239 DAK (9mm)
NRA Member & Pistol Instructor
June 28th, 2009 07:09 AM
I just don't trust the other drivers either. Once I was sitting at a stop light waiting when a large pick-up truck rammed me in the back. If I was on the bike at the time..it would have been real bad
Originally Posted by Bunny
People drink and drive... People use cell phones and drive.. I have even see someone read a book. Yes, they had it on the steering wheel and would just look up every now and then.
There are a lot of bad drivers out there. I think Sixto, has the best idea.. just get a dirt bike and enjoy driving in the nature.
June 28th, 2009 08:23 AM
Many have. I've seen a couple reasonable presentations before, ones that looked much the same as those shown in the OP's link. It can be illuminating. Not for everyone, but education often isn't. It's simply part of the puzzle of engaging in the activity.
Originally Posted by deadhawg
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: Why the Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
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