I think I figured out the new administrations health plan.

This is a discussion on I think I figured out the new administrations health plan. within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Hopyard O.K. Clearly our present system by which people obtain health insurance, or not, does not work either. Is there a solution ...

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  1. #31
    Member Array Fisherman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    O.K. Clearly our present system by which people obtain health insurance, or not, does not work either.

    Is there a solution that you would find satisfactory?
    Yes. If the government would have stayed out of the insurance business, things would have been fine. The AMA is a huge part of the problem too.
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  3. #32
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    Oh,

    Quote Originally Posted by Fisherman View Post
    Yes. If the government would have stayed out of the insurance business, things would have been fine. The AMA is a huge part of the problem too.
    Oh. Well, things weren't fine at all prior to the introduction of Medicare and Medicaid either; that is why President Truman tried to get universal health care passed as far back as his term which started in the late 1940s.

    So, how is it that a private insurance industry did not make things fine when there was no government involvement in health insurance whatsoever?

    As to the other remark, laying the blame at the feet of the AMA, I partially agree with you--so at least there is some point of agreement.

    Most participants here are too young to have recollection of the Carter years. I believe this discussion was had then too, in the form of a debate about increasing production of the number of physicians as a means to bring cost down. His Sec.of Health (whatever they called it then) J. Callifano (sp?) famously went about the Sunday morning news shows declaring that producing more docs would increase not decrease medical costs. Hmmm, opposite of what one would think based on free market principles.

    The point, no matter what anyone has suggested to get health care costs down, change the insurance scheme, increase numbers of practitioners, special interest groups raise you know what to get in the way.

    How about a little special interest for the ordinary folks who go to work every day of their lives and are still one or two paychecks away from calamity? After all, these are only 80% of the voters.

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array InspectorGadget's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Why does that concern you? If you could be better off under a "socialist system," why would you object? There is nothing in our law that prohibits "socialism." There is nothing inherently evil about about socialism, any more so than any other "ism." How about concerning oneself with us (the body politic) getting a practical resolution that works without worrying about the ideology?
    The problem with Socialism and Communism is that we are a free country made up of Free States, our Central Govt. was never meant to be this powerful, it gave itself these powers in spite of our constitution. (See 10th amendment)

    The reason why socialism fails over and over is simple. It requires “From each according to his ability, to each according to his need.” If man were in general selfless this would be great just look at any ant colony. But man is by his very nature selfish, Capitalism allows man to be what he is and pursue the American Dream. Socialism ignores the basic premise that man is a sinner according to religion, or a predatory pack animal according to Darwin. Either way the result is the same people will compete to be in charge of the selfless society, and many individuals tend to see it as “From you according to your ability, to me according to my want.” This is the true danger of a welfare state; there is inertia to keep it that way even if it cannot afford it. This board proves how many predators there are every single day.
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    O.K. Clearly our present system by which people obtain health insurance, or not, does not work either.
    This assumption is a real problem. Many take it for granted because that it what the liberal media has been espousing. Tell a lie often enough and you might be confused with Goebbels, which is a compliment for the media these days. The current system works just fine.

    Virtually everyone has insurance. More to the point, EVERYONE has access to medical care. (Even, or should I say especially, illegals. Living in Southern Arizona, I see first hand how the illegals, oops I mean undocumented, crowd emergency rooms so they can steal our money and get free health care.)

    The fact is we have the best health care in the world. We lead in technological research, we develop life saving drugs, we invent new diagnostic equipment and the advances are entirely due to one reason. The people that fund projects have an opportunity to MAKE A PROFIT.

    Remove that incentive and research will be highly diminished. Think of medicine without CAT scans, without MRIs, withut XRAYS. That is what you have under government run health care. No incentive, no advances. We are already seeing the decline of qualty doctors because of frivolous law suits that make malpractice insurance premiums untenable. Why enter medicine when you can be a lawyer! And it takes hard work to become a doctor.

    Is there a solution that you would find satisfactory?
    What do you think the problem is?

    If people would take responsibility for themselves instead of relying on a minimal copayment so a doctor can tell them to rest and drink plenty of fluids, then there would be no stress on the system at all. HMOs and PPOs have made us a society of hypochondriacs. Got the flu, go to the doctor. Wake up at night to go to the bathroom, go to the doctor. Indigestion, go to the docor. Acne, go to the doctor. Go outside in the spring and sneeze, go to the doctor. Can't perform in bed, go to the doctor. Got to the doctor. Go to the doctor, Go to the doctor.

    Madness...madness...

    If you cannot afford insurance, GET A JOB! I should not have to pay for your medical services.

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    How about a little special interest for the ordinary folks who go to work every day of their lives and are still one or two paychecks away from calamity? After all, these are only 80% of the voters.
    How about saving your own money for a potential emergency? The fact is that almost 90% have insurance so your 80% number is sheer nonsense.

    And if people were not trained to believe hard working people would take care of them (by force) if they run into hardship, maybe they would have one car instead of two. Maybe they would not have a cell phone or internet access. Maybe they would quit smoking and drinking alcohol. Maybe they would not buy lottery tickets and gamble at the local Indian casino. Maybe they wouldn't buy their children fancy sneakers and jeans. Maybe they would learn to cook and not spend money on fast food.

    The poorest of the poor in America would be considered extremely wealthy in many nations. Simply a case of spoiled brats who are jealous because hard working Americans have succeeded in life.

  7. #36
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    SD-- have a gander at this before we chug on with whack-a-mole:

    http://www.familiesusa.org/assets/pd...risk/texas.pdf

    Oh, the search string was "Texans without health insurance."

  8. #37
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    So Medicare and Medicaid are great examples of a government medical system? Is that why seniors need to buy gap coverage plans, why seniors complain about the system, why doctors and hospitals complain about the system? I have a friend who is a doctor. He has admin personnel and he still spends 20% of his time filling out forms, almost all of that for the government.

    How about the VA hospitals? Anyone want to claim that government healthcare system works well? Know anyone who wants to go to that system for treatment if they have a choice?

    I do a bit of traveling, and meet people who live under the socialist medical paradises that are being proposed. Most of them travel out of their countries to get better treatment, if they can afford it. Met a fellow who was upper management for a major European airport. He didn't have enough pull so he had to bribe people in the medical system so his terminal mother could get pain meds, because by the government standards, it was a crime to give them to her (she was too old and sick).

    I have a niece who has had major medical problems (multiple visits to the ICU for extended periods of time) for over a decade. Never had a treatment refused by the big, evil private insurance company. When she burned through my brother's annual health care limits, the big, evil, for-profit hospital and doctors still treated her well. Sometimes they made payment plans, sometimes they forgave the bills.

    To tell the truth, I don't know anyone who was denied treatment under private insurance plans. I do know people who were given the run around under government plans, who were told what they could get treated and not.

    I'm thinking the more government stays out of our medical system, the better it will run. Can anyone think of anything the government does well except the military, where you basically give up all your rights while you are enlisted (and beyond the end of your enlistment)?

  9. #38
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    Ron Pollack (co-founder of Families USA) was a Lawyer in the Clinton Administration working on HillaryCare, and is a lobyist in washington for National Health Care. That is like asking ACORN to be a experts on Voter Registration Ethics.
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  10. #39
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    Medicare and Medicaid is rampant with fraud.

    The dictator's universal healthcare will be rampant with fraud too.

    Give it some time.....it will fail.
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. — Winston Churchill

  11. #40
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    Yes-

    Quote Originally Posted by Patti View Post
    Medicare and Medicaid is rampant with fraud.

    The dictator's universal healthcare will be rampant with fraud too.

    Give it some time.....it will fail.
    Yes, but so too the fraud from private carriers. The docs who will lie to one will lie to the other. Which one do you think has the resources to actually investigate fraud and arrest folks.

    A doc in our town was hauled off a few weeks ago. Turned in claims on non-existent patients.

    So, there will be fraud no matter who runs the programs.

  12. #41
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    Ruin Your Health With the Obama Stimulus Plan: Betsy McCaughey
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    Commentary by Betsy McCaughey



    Feb. 9 (Bloomberg) -- Republican Senators are questioning whether President Barack Obama’s stimulus bill contains the right mix of tax breaks and cash infusions to jump-start the economy.

    Tragically, no one from either party is objecting to the health provisions slipped in without discussion. These provisions reflect the handiwork of Tom Daschle, until recently the nominee to head the Health and Human Services Department.

    Senators should read these provisions and vote against them because they are dangerous to your health. (Page numbers refer to H.R. 1 EH, pdf version).

    The bill’s health rules will affect “every individual in the United States” (445, 454, 479). Your medical treatments will be tracked electronically by a federal system. Having electronic medical records at your fingertips, easily transferred to a hospital, is beneficial. It will help avoid duplicate tests and errors.

    But the bill goes further. One new bureaucracy, the National Coordinator of Health Information Technology, will monitor treatments to make sure your doctor is doing what the federal government deems appropriate and cost effective. The goal is to reduce costs and “guide” your doctor’s decisions (442, 446). These provisions in the stimulus bill are virtually identical to what Daschle prescribed in his 2008 book, “Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis.” According to Daschle, doctors have to give up autonomy and “learn to operate less like solo practitioners.”

    Keeping doctors informed of the newest medical findings is important, but enforcing uniformity goes too far.

    New Penalties

    Hospitals and doctors that are not “meaningful users” of the new system will face penalties. “Meaningful user” isn’t defined in the bill. That will be left to the HHS secretary, who will be empowered to impose “more stringent measures of meaningful use over time” (511, 518, 540-541)

    What penalties will deter your doctor from going beyond the electronically delivered protocols when your condition is atypical or you need an experimental treatment? The vagueness is intentional. In his book, Daschle proposed an appointed body with vast powers to make the “tough” decisions elected politicians won’t make.

    The stimulus bill does that, and calls it the Federal Coordinating Council for Comparative Effectiveness Research (190-192). The goal, Daschle’s book explained, is to slow the development and use of new medications and technologies because they are driving up costs. He praises Europeans for being more willing to accept “hopeless diagnoses” and “forgo experimental treatments,” and he chastises Americans for expecting too much from the health-care system.

    Elderly Hardest Hit

    Daschle says health-care reform “will not be pain free.” Seniors should be more accepting of the conditions that come with age instead of treating them. That means the elderly will bear the brunt.

    Medicare now pays for treatments deemed safe and effective. The stimulus bill would change that and apply a cost- effectiveness standard set by the Federal Council (464).

    The Federal Council is modeled after a U.K. board discussed in Daschle’s book. This board approves or rejects treatments using a formula that divides the cost of the treatment by the number of years the patient is likely to benefit. Treatments for younger patients are more often approved than treatments for diseases that affect the elderly, such as osteoporosis.

    In 2006, a U.K. health board decreed that elderly patients with macular degeneration had to wait until they went blind in one eye before they could get a costly new drug to save the other eye. It took almost three years of public protests before the board reversed its decision.

    Hidden Provisions

    If the Obama administration’s economic stimulus bill passes the Senate in its current form, seniors in the U.S. will face similar rationing. Defenders of the system say that individuals benefit in younger years and sacrifice later.

    The stimulus bill will affect every part of health care, from medical and nursing education, to how patients are treated and how much hospitals get paid. The bill allocates more funding for this bureaucracy than for the Army, Navy, Marines, and Air Force combined (90-92, 174-177, 181).

    Hiding health legislation in a stimulus bill is intentional. Daschle supported the Clinton administration’s health-care overhaul in 1994, and attributed its failure to debate and delay. A year ago, Daschle wrote that the next president should act quickly before critics mount an opposition. “If that means attaching a health-care plan to the federal budget, so be it,” he said. “The issue is too important to be stalled by Senate protocol.”

    More Scrutiny Needed

    On Friday, President Obama called it “inexcusable and irresponsible” for senators to delay passing the stimulus bill. In truth, this bill needs more scrutiny.

    The health-care industry is the largest employer in the U.S. It produces almost 17 percent of the nation’s gross domestic product. Yet the bill treats health care the way European governments do: as a cost problem instead of a growth industry. Imagine limiting growth and innovation in the electronics or auto industry during this downturn. This stimulus is dangerous to your health and the economy.

    (Betsy McCaughey is former lieutenant governor of New York and is an adjunct senior fellow at the Hudson Institute. The opinions expressed are her own.)
    Ruin Your Health With the Obama Stimulus Plan: Betsy McCaughey - Bloomberg.com
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. — Winston Churchill

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Yes, but so too the fraud from private carriers. The docs who will lie to one will lie to the other. Which one do you think has the resources to actually investigate fraud and arrest folks.

    A doc in our town was hauled off a few weeks ago. Turned in claims on non-existent patients.

    So, there will be fraud no matter who runs the programs.
    Hopyard,

    It's admirable that you are a cheerleader for Obama's socialistic agenda.

    But lets look at the facts.

    Fraud is much more rampant in the Medicare/Medicaid program.

    It's much easier to defraud a bureaucratc system, especially when it is loaded with bloat and cronyism.

    Fraud statistics
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. — Winston Churchill

  14. #43
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    Really Patti

    Quote Originally Posted by Patti View Post
    Hopyard,

    It's admirable that you are a cheerleader for Obama's socialistic agenda.

    But lets look at the facts.

    Fraud is much more rampant in the Medicare/Medicaid program.

    It's much easier to defraud a bureaucratc system, especially when it is loaded with bloat and cronyism.

    Fraud statistics
    Really Patti? What cronyism, btw? That is a strange one.

    As for rooting out fraud, I once called The Blues and told them I did not want them to pay a particular provider*; the bill was for 2K which back 15 -20 years away was still a significant amount, no?

    They paid the turkey anyway, and there was nothing I could do to stop it.

    Is that an example of an efficient private company rooting out waste and fraud? Just asking.
    ____________________________________________
    *Dude had botched a very common eye surgery and wanted to charge for the do over, and the third do-over. I wound up having 5 operations the last two to fix what the first dude messed up. You all want to talk to me about fraud and tort reform eh? I lost almost 9 months from work and almost got fired, to say nothing of living with poor vision in one eye. But yep, the good ole Blues, who denied innumerable valid claims wouldn't put a hold on this one even when begged to stop payment and let me force him to sue me. Tell me again how efficient the private system is Patti. Please tell me.

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Really Patti? What cronyism, btw? That is a strange one.

    As for rooting out fraud, I once called The Blues and told them I did not want them to pay a particular provider*; the bill was for 2K which back 15 -20 years away was still a significant amount, no?

    They paid the turkey anyway, and there was nothing I could do to stop it.

    Is that an example of an efficient private company rooting out waste and fraud? Just asking.
    ____________________________________________
    *Dude had botched a very common eye surgery and wanted to charge for the do over, and the third do-over. I wound up having 5 operations the last two to fix what the first dude messed up. You all want to talk to me about fraud and tort reform eh? I lost almost 9 months from work and almost got fired, to say nothing of living with poor vision in one eye. But yep, the good ole Blues, who denied innumerable valid claims wouldn't put a hold on this one even when begged to stop payment and let me force him to sue me. Tell me again how efficient the private system is Patti. Please tell me.
    Cronyism, you ask?

    ALL of the bureaucratic government entities are LOADED with cronyism.

    It's called political pay-back.

    I'm surprised you've never heard of it.

    We can come up with single issues involving fraud, but facts are facts, Hopyard.

    The facts don't lie.

    Medicare and Medicaid are way out ahead of the pack when it comes to fraud.

    How well does the current system work?

    Mine works just fine.

    Perhaps you should consider switching insurance companies.

    Oh, by the way, you may want to report your "single" incident of insurance fraud here:

    https://www.nicb.org/cps/rde/xchg/nicb/hs.xsl/index.htm
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. — Winston Churchill

  16. #45
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    What facts Patti?

    Quote Originally Posted by Patti View Post
    Cronyism, you ask?

    ALL of the bureaucratic government entities are LOADED with cronyism.

    It's called political pay-back.

    I'm surprised you've never heard of it.

    We can come up with single issues involving fraud, but facts are facts, Hopyard.

    The facts don't lie.

    Medicare and Medicaid are way out ahead of the pack when it comes to fraud.
    O.K. I'm willing to be convinced. What "facts" found where, support your assertion that there is more fraud in Medicare than in private systems?

    Not sure that would by itself be a deal killer for me, but if true it is something to consider.

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