Another Gun toting Liberal

Another Gun toting Liberal

This is a discussion on Another Gun toting Liberal within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Preface: I post this with a bit of trepidation, I am not trying to inflame political rhetoric or a flame war. I would like some ...

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Thread: Another Gun toting Liberal

  1. #1
    Member Array yoshi's Avatar
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    Another Gun toting Liberal

    Preface: I post this with a bit of trepidation, I am not trying to inflame political rhetoric or a flame war.
    I would like some serious thoughts on the subject of why more liberals do not feel comfortable around pro-gun people.

    Here is my pet-peeve - not about this forum specifically but about "Gun people" in general:
    Now I own guns, I love guns, I have CCW, I believe in the 2nd Amendment - I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN. It seems everywhere I go that is "gun-friendly" it is assumed that people are republican or right-wing libertarian.
    I consider myself a LIBERAL - I believe that it is essential to extend the utmost of civil and human rights to each individual even if it means living in a little more danger - because by doing so I guarantee the rights of everybody else. I belong to the NRA and the ACLU (although the ACLU is lapsed at the moment). I believe it is a vocal minority of the LEFT that is Anti-gun (ala Brady center, AWB, media). I don't understand why the NRA focuses most of its effort on getting Republicans elected - why don't they try to find pro-gun Democrats? I don't understand why so many politicians are so keen to protect hunting and sporting, but not the principles enshrined in our own declaration of independence ("When in the course of human events...").

    I have struggled for years to flesh out my own thoughts on this and I could write a book, but not here. Also I am afraid people see a gun-toting liberal as a revolutionary - which I am not. But it is precisely the fact that we could overthrow the government that gives the government and our system of democracy its credibility.

    I believe some of you may have thought about this before, and look forward to your insight.

    That said, I am now probably on some NSA watch list.
    Live Free or Die


  2. #2
    JT
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoshi
    I belong to the NRA and the ACLU (although the ACLU is lapsed at the moment). :
    If you renew your membership in the ACLU, why don't you try to influence them to support the 2nd Amendment? It is a HUGE inconsistency on their part that they claim to stand for civil rights, but will not work to protect (and in some cases work against) the 2nd amendment.

    Quote Originally Posted by yoshi
    I don't understand why the NRA focuses most of its effort on getting Republicans elected - why don't they try to find pro-gun Democrats? :
    I don’t think it is the NRA’s job to “find pro-gun Democrats”. Any pro-gun Democrats should let themselves be known. The NRA has and will support a Democrat who is genuinely pro-2nd Amendment. If it comes down to a pro-2nd Amendment Republican running against a pro-2nd Amendment Democrat they will support the Republican, because politicians tend to vote with their parties (with some exceptions). It is more likely that a Republican will vote pro 2nd Amendment since that is the party platform (at least to more of a degree than the Democrats).

    On the state level, I have seen the Texas State Rife Association back a Democrat incumbent over a Republican when they are both highly rated in their support of the 2nd, because the incumbent Democrat had a proven track record of support (as opposed to the Republican challenger just saying he supports), and because they want to reward the incumbent Democrat for their support.
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Si vis pacem, para bellum

  3. #3
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    Good post, Yoshi, and interesting. I am going through a strange transition politically. I used to be a staunch Republican and rather anti-handgun ( )(mainly because I didn't pay attention to the issue - I was IMHO). I am now going Liberal or Libertarian and very pro-gun (CC, collecting, shoot at least weekly, etc.).

    So, I don't think that the issue can be categorized easily or quickly. I believe the media tends to reduce it to the lowest common "sound bite" and thus it is easiest (and makes the most sensational "bite") to rely on stereotypes.

    It is a issue, however, that transcends political boundaries, and thus, the pro-gun and the anti-gun groups will still be forced into the party "edges" to make political "capital" for the respective political party. The two major parties are becoming more a function of strong minorities holding threats of extreme action over the leaders IMHO.

    Just rambling....


    The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins. ― The Journals of Kierkegaard

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    We already went through this with WorldPax. Then it was illuminating since he was our first (out of the closet liberal -- there could be more). Now, it's important to keep the tone here civil and friendly. Some of my best friends are liberals. They stay my best friends because by mutual agreement we never discuss politics. Nobody is going to change anybody elses mind, but it doesn't matter as long as we all stay on topic. That's my .02
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    ZELL MILLER for President!!!

    The ACLU was founded by a card carrying member of the communist party. That says it all. That is not inflammatory rhetoric it is fact.

    Geeeeze I'm getting suckered into this...despite my earlier post and a private vow not to!
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Array glock21guy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoshi
    Preface: I consider myself a LIBERAL - I believe that it is essential to extend the utmost of civil and human rights to each individual even if it means living in a little more danger - because by doing so I guarantee the rights of everybody else.
    I don't see it as a political thing, but a right to protect your self, and loved ones. I work with a guy that is of the mind set you do nothing, and all will be good in the world, like Mahatma Gandhi. I think this is a noble belief, and in his time it worked. But I am not will to put my life on the line to test it out. The world has change changed greatly since Gandhi was around.

    It seems to me that society as a whole has helped with the explosion in crime. The fact that most people, and BG, are the worst, don't take/are not held responsibility for their own actions.

    I don't go looking for a fight but if one comes my way I will do what ever it takes to protect my self, and my loved ones.
    Aaron

    If you don't protect your self, who will?

  7. #7
    Member Array yoshi's Avatar
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    ExSoldier - I can appreciate your statement. I don't agree with everything the ACLU does. I would however really like to raise the idea that gun toting liberals don't necessarily feel "at home" with the traditional "gun-people/NRA" crowd. If gun rights are a priority issue, I would like to see my NRA, and other gun-groups try to make "liberals" feel more welcome - and build the ranks. I think (in response to JT) that it might be a good PR boost for the NRA to push some non-republican candidates, or atleast publicize when they do (and I applaud the Texas State Rifle Association for doing that).

    I'm not interested in an argument over political differences, I would like to see dialogue though on what we have in common.

    For all the ACLU's flaws on the 2nd Ammendment, I think that they do have one thing right - "Unless the Constitution protects the individual's right to own all kinds of arms, there is no principled way to oppose reasonable restrictions on handguns, Uzis or semi-automatic rifles."
    Live Free or Die

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    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    I welcome anyone interested in furthering the 2nd . That being said my vote will most likely often cancel Yoshi's , that my friends is what america is about. Each of us has a duty to vote to further what is right as we see it . Again Yoshi welcome aboard and someday you may come to your senses where issues like the aclu is concerned ( jk )

  9. #9
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    Good, thoughtful post yoshi...I'll throw a few things out here
    Quote Originally Posted by yoshi
    I would like some serious thoughts on the subject of why more liberals do not feel comfortable around pro-gun people.
    Speaking as a "pro-gun people", I don't really concern myself with the comfort level of liberals...it's not up to me to make them feel comfortable. How they "feel" is strictly up to them. If my strong beliefs about gun ownership and dislike of any infringment on those rights puts a twist in someones underwear, I see that as their problem, not mine.

    For me, the bottom line is and always will be supporting the Constitution, not any particular political party.

    Quote Originally Posted by yoshi
    Now I own guns, I love guns, I have CCW, I believe in the 2nd Amendment - I AM NOT A REPUBLICAN.
    Welcome! I'm a registered Republican...but not because I support everything the party stands for. In truth, I guess I would consider myself to be more of a Constitution Party kinda guy, but strength comes in numbers, not wishes, and the Repub's are currently eroding my gun rights at a slower pace than the Democrats, so I have to bite my tongue and support the GOP at the polls.


    Quote Originally Posted by yoshi
    I believe it is a vocal minority of the LEFT that is Anti-gun (ala Brady center, AWB, media).
    Ted Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean, etc., are certainly vocal about about their anti-gun beliefs, but they are the leadership of the Democrat party, not a minority.

    Quote Originally Posted by yoshi
    I have struggled for years to flesh out my own thoughts on this and I could write a book, but not here. Also I am afraid people see a gun-toting liberal as a revolutionary - which I am not. But it is precisely the fact that we could overthrow the government that gives the government and our system of democracy its credibility.
    "I surrounded 'em"- Alvin York

    "They're ain't many troubles that a man can't fix with seven hundred dollars and a thirty ought six"- Jeff Cooper

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Exclamation Thankyou WorldPax!

    Quote Originally Posted by yoshi
    ExSoldier - I can appreciate your statement. I don't agree with everything the ACLU does. I would however really like to raise the idea that gun toting liberals don't necessarily feel "at home" with the traditional "gun-people/NRA" crowd. If gun rights are a priority issue, I would like to see my NRA, and other gun-groups try to make "liberals" feel more welcome - and build the ranks. I think (in response to JT) that it might be a good PR boost for the NRA to push some non-republican candidates, or atleast publicize when they do (and I applaud the Texas State Rifle Association for doing that).

    I'm not interested in an argument over political differences, I would like to see dialogue though on what we have in common.

    For all the ACLU's flaws on the 2nd Ammendment, I think that they do have one thing right - "Unless the Constitution protects the individual's right to own all kinds of arms, there is no principled way to oppose reasonable restrictions on handguns, Uzis or semi-automatic rifles."
    After the ripping we gave to poor WorldPax, way back when (I was one of those offenders ) we grew and this has become an interesting and thoughtful thread.

    For the record, it is a part of the Democratic Party platform to support "reasonable gun control" but the reality shows overwhelming preferences for total gun bans.

    NRA rated Zell Miller (when he was in office) with an A+ and I'm unaware of any other overtly progun Democrats at the federal level. All politics is local goes the saying. Therefore I'll bet there are some progun pols in state office. I'll also bet that state level NRA reports endorse those pols. I'll also bet that individual state gun groups run their own reports and are NRA affiliated.

    Don't be fooled by the ACLU's rhetoric. They themselves have stated that the 2nd Amendment does not guarantee an individual right so they feel safe in making the above statement.
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    Senior Member Array David III's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by yoshi
    For all the ACLU's flaws on the 2nd Ammendment, I think that they do have one thing right - "Unless the Constitution protects the individual's right to own all kinds of arms, there is no principled way to oppose reasonable restrictions on handguns, Uzis or semi-automatic rifles."
    I honestly do not know where I stand politically, as I basically do not care for anyone who we have in government now. However, I don't recall where the 2nd differentiates types of firearms. Personally, I absolutely do not think that there should be restrictions on handguns, Uzis, semi-autos --- or fully automatic firearms either. What's "reasonable" to one may be extreme to another. I find restrictions unreasonable and, I believe, unconstitutional - because the Constitution does protect my individual right to own all kinds of arms.
    My 2 cents worth.

  12. #12
    Member Array yoshi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Team American
    Ted Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, Hillary Clinton, Nancy Pelosi, Howard Dean, etc., are certainly vocal about about their anti-gun beliefs, but they are the leadership of the Democrat party, not a minority.
    I think its difficult to call them much of a leadership when they have no (good) articulated platform. I think they do a horrible job of representing liberal thinkers - They have managed to disenfranchise many liberals (including myself).

    Quote Originally Posted by David III
    Personally, I absolutely do not think that there should be restrictions on handguns, Uzis, semi-autos --- or fully automatic firearms either. What's "reasonable" to one may be extreme to another. I find restrictions unreasonable and, I believe, unconstitutional - because the Constitution does protect my individual right to own all kinds of arms.
    I agree 100%

    This isn't at all a me vs. you. I consider myself one of "you" as far as guns go (and probably on much more than we all realize).
    Live Free or Die

  13. #13
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    yoshi - well looking good so far Actually quite a useful constructive discourse.

    Bottom line for me is not what particular party per se, that folks ascribe to - much more it is their basic core values and in that respect I am very much apolitical. We do indeed overall I reckon all share very similar views and values and I certainly cannot be bothered with political nit-pickin'.
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    "To own a gun and assume that you are armed
    is like owning a piano and assuming that you are a musician!."


    http://www.rkba-2a.com/ - a portal for 2A links, articles and some videos.

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    VIP Member Array ExSoldier's Avatar
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    Interesting point...

    Quote Originally Posted by David III
    However, I don't recall where the 2nd differentiates types of firearms.
    Funny thing, when the antis are ripping the 2nd they often throw that one out as a shallow and simplistic excuse and they put it this way:
    When the 2nd was written modern firearms didn't exist so the only right that is protected it the right to keep and bear muzzle loading muskets....

    What they fail to acknowledge is the fact that when the 2nd was written, firearms were an evolving technology at that time nearly THREE HUNDRED YEARS OLD....so the muzzle loading musket was state of the art. That indeed is exactly why the term arms was used to include all subsequent advances. That is why the UZi and full auto are included and so too will my PHASER be included if we get there. However, the Founders also seemed to exclude crew served weapons like cannons (from their writings and letters of the period) which is why we are forbidden mortars and 155mm self propelled artillery. lol
    Former Army Infantry Captain; 25 yrs as an NRA Certified Instructor; Avid practitioner of the martial art: KLIK-PAO.

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    JT
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    Quote Originally Posted by ExSoldier762
    Funny thing, when the antis are ripping the 2nd they often throw that one out as a shallow and simplistic excuse and they put it this way:
    When the 2nd was written modern firearms didn't exist so the only right that is protected it the right to keep and bear muzzle loading muskets....
    In that case then Freedom of Speech does not apply to radio, TV, telephones and the Internet because they didnít exist then.
    Blessed be the Lord my rock who trains my hands for war and my fingers for battle. Psalm 144:1

    Si vis pacem, para bellum

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