Remembering a different Cronkite

This is a discussion on Remembering a different Cronkite within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by TN_Mike Cronkite was a closet anti-American and a border line Commie in my opinion. I never liked him, and, while I may ...

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Thread: Remembering a different Cronkite

  1. #31
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    Couldn't have said it better.........

    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    Cronkite was a closet anti-American and a border line Commie in my opinion. I never liked him, and, while I may have been young back then, I did see his smug face on TV and didn't like him then.

    I was actually quite happy when I heard he had died. I had been waiting for it and hoping it would happen for a long time.

    Now I can't wait for that fool and big time lefty Dan Rather to drop dead.
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  3. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEW58 View Post
    I served 20 years in the Army, but was too young to have served in Vietnam. But my personal belief is that they didn't die for nothing.

    They died for all of us.
    I agree with you, I been too emotional in this.For me it's the way the rules were for us, like the bombing halts, fire & free fire zones that upset me.CEW58 thankyou for your service.
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  4. #33
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    [QUOTE=Hopyard;1246729]I didn't intend to diminish the enormity of the numbers of folks involved at the time. I was writing in terms of a % of folks in our population living today who lived through that era. The vietnam era vet is a small fraction of our population and of this board.

    The Vietnam War lasted roughly 10 years and millions of American Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines and Coast Guard troops served. Most are still alive today as are our children and their children. But hey, why get upset about some people wanting to forget the '60's and all that stuff about Vietnam. There were then and apparently are even now many Americans who wanted to dismiss us and forget all that unpleasntness. Unfortunately for them, we didn't all die off or just quietly disappear. We're still here and will be for many years to come.
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  5. #34
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    Please go back and read what I wrote

    [QUOTE=Mardet65;1249875]
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I didn't intend to diminish the enormity of the numbers of folks involved at the time. I was writing in terms of a % of folks in our population living today who lived through that era. The vietnam era vet is a small fraction of our population and of this board.

    The Vietnam War lasted roughly 10 years and millions of American Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, Marines and Coast Guard troops served. Most are still alive today as are our children and their children. But hey, why get upset about some people wanting to forget the '60's and all that stuff about Vietnam. There were then and apparently are even now many Americans who wanted to dismiss us and forget all that unpleasntness. Unfortunately for them, we didn't all die off or just quietly disappear. We're still here and will be for many years to come.
    Please go back and read what I wrote, and think carefully a little about what was being conveyed. You have expressed a reaction which is somewhat understandable that the VN vet is being "written off" and some want him to disappear.

    If you look at what I wrote you will see that I said nothing along those lines. In fact what I got skewered for was stating that I wasn't interested in hearing from those who were too young to be involved back then, or too young to remember the times. I never said I didn't want to hear from people of my generation.

    O.K.?

    Now with that hopefully cleared up, the whole thread got started because people were dumping on Cronkite as if he were the sole blame for the apparent debacle.

    Again, go back and read what I wrote. I stated that we got a victory in the end. We have normal relations with Vietnam. We have normal relations with China. The historian will look back and see that what we have long called a defeat, wasn't. Not in the long term.

    I have been attacked by Sat Cong, and I didn't respond to Patti. I didn't respond to keep things civil.

    Regarding Dave's post, again, the politics of the VN era were so complex that placing blame on Cronkite as the embodiment of some "evil media" is a pretty narrow view of the era.

    The blame for all of it was squarely first with the Vietnamese themselves, and second with our own political and military leadership. No amount of happy face news reporting would have turned events in a place where monks were publicly immolating themselves to protest a dictator. No amount of happy face can rid us of the fact that insurgents don't succeed without local support.

    Again, I don't like to think or talk about any of this. The 60s sucked. It was just one calamity and crisis after another.

  6. #35
    kpw
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    In fact what I got skewered for was stating that I wasn't interested in hearing from those who were too young to be involved back then, or too young to remember the times. I never said I didn't want to hear from people of my generation.
    So if somebody that lived through those times disagrees with you and your perceptions....then what?

    Now with that hopefully cleared up, the whole thread got started because people were dumping on Cronkite as if he were the sole blame for the apparent debacle.
    Nobody implied anywhere that Cronkite was the sole blame but that he played a large, implicit part in the deterioration of morale in the public and out troops.

    Regarding Dave's post, again, the politics of the VN era were so complex that placing blame on Cronkite as the embodiment of some "evil media" is a pretty narrow view of the era.
    Not really all that complex. Even less so with 40 years of hindsight.

    The blame for all of it was squarely first with the Vietnamese themselves, and second with our own political and military leadership. No amount of happy face news reporting would have turned events in a place where monks were publicly immolating themselves to protest a dictator. No amount of happy face can rid us of the fact that insurgents don't succeed without local support.
    Maybe not a happy face but the real truth would have been nice. Sound familiar? It should.

    Again, I don't like to think or talk about any of this. The 60s sucked. It was just one calamity and crisis after another.
    Then quit posting to this thread.
    Calamity and crisis...like the 70's, 80's, 90's.......
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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    "Upon his return, Cronkite pronounced the war a "hopeless stalemate" and advised his audience that the United States should negotiate an end to the war and get out as soon as we could. President Johnson, hearing this, was purported to have exclaimed: "If I've lost Cronkite I've lost Middle America." One month later, he declined to run again for the presidency."

    This is what I remember the man for. Yes he was trusted, but it was because we thought him to be impartial. When he issued this statement on the air I never could believe him to be impartial again. He was no longer a newscaster but had become an analyst. I do not believe you can mingle the two together.

    Michael


    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post

    Indeed, if Secry. of Defense McNamara had kept his mouth shut, it is possible the public may have stayed with the game longer.


    I never said Cronkite was the sole actor. There were lots of other voices chiming in.

    I never said Cronkite was the sole cause.

    Quote Originally Posted by mlr1m View Post
    I'm only talking about Cronkites credibility as a newscaster. When he made that statement on his news program he was no longer impartial is all I am saying. His job was not to articulate what people felt. His job was to give us the news without adding any personal feelings to it. Editorials are not news, they are opinions. I watched his show for unbiased news, not opinions.

    Michael
    That's the point of my OP -- not would've, could've, shoud've revisionist ball gazing.


    Quote Originally Posted by SilenceDoGood View Post

    It's post hoc because the "millions of people that were murded" were done so without any directly correlation between Walter Cronkite and the people.
    IMHO, it would only be post hoc were someone to claim that Cronkite was the sole cause or if you could establish that his so-called news reports had no causative effect. Are you claiming he had no causative effect on the US withdrawal and therefore the aftermath?

    Nice Forensics misdirect however.
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  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Please go back and read what I wrote, and think carefully a little about what was being conveyed. You have expressed a reaction which is somewhat understandable that the VN vet is being "written off" and some want him to disappear.
    Well thank you for your concern about my replying without carefully reading what you wrote, but I stand by what I said. You know, I was gonna' blast you a little bit myself; but what would be the point. Have a good one.
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  9. #38
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    re: kpw

    Quote Originally Posted by kpw View Post
    So if somebody that lived through those times disagrees with you and your perceptions....then what?

    ....
    What I have been attempting to say, apparently not in a particularly effective way, is that I respect the opinions of the folks who lived through that era and experienced the history as part of their life. I may disagree but at least I know where they are coming from. I know where the raw emotion is coming from.

    I'm less interested in, even contemptuous of, those who having no first hand experience of the times think they know what happened and why, and post things not consistent with what happened. Blaming The Fourth Estate (The Press) for the colossal misjudgments of the Johnson administration is misplacing the blame.

    I've drawn fire on myself from a few folks who have completely missed the point I was making. It was no attack on anyone who served back then at all. Yet, that is how a couple of folks have taken it.

    It seems several of us are talking past each other rather than to each other.

    Does that help?

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I'm less interested in, even contemptuous of, those who having no first hand experience of the times think they know what happened and why, and post things not consistent with what happened. Blaming The Fourth Estate (The Press) for the colossal misjudgments of the Johnson administration is misplacing the blame.
    You are disinterested in and contemptuous of those who weren't there to experience it.

    Were you in Nam?

    Or just a bystander?
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  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilenceDoGood View Post
    The one I specifically told you to check out was post hoc, as it directly deals with this post.

    You say "how about the millions of people murdered because we withdrew?"

    I say, this is a post hoc fallacy for the following reasons:

    It's post hoc because the "millions of people that were murded" were done so without any directly correlation between Walter Cronkite and the people. Walter Cronkite wasn't the cause of "millions of people [being murdered] (the effect)."
    I expect you have already read why your argument is flawed so I won't repeat the critical analysis. I will reiterate that it your responsibility to prove another cause (if the argument was sole cause.)

    I offer you an analogy to think about. An airplane mechanic reports on the state of the plane before it takes off. Though the mevhanic knows there are defective and worn parts, he tells the pilot all is well. Subsequently, the plane fails and all aboard are killed.

    Later, it is discovered that the mechanic lied about the air worthiness and is accused of being a significant reaon the plane crashed.

    Someone claims that argument is fallacious because of a post hoc logic problem. It is the responsibility of THAT person to demonstrate there was another cause and the defective parts and false report were not involved at all.

    It is often a difficult task to demonstrate a logical fallacy in the case of a causal relationship. You have failed in that task today.


    Oh, and I'm actually in college in small part thanks to a Lincoln Douglas debate scholarship see (Forensics team). Good try though.
    Congratulations. Seriously. I do hope you will learn to be more thorough before accusing others of logical fallacies.

  12. #41
    kpw
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I'm less interested in, even contemptuous of, those who having no first hand experience of the times think they know what happened and why, and post things not consistent with what happened.
    Have you ever been in a discussion about the Revolutionary War? Civil War, slavery, WW1, WW2 or Korea? How about foreign affairs? Your first hand experience is just that. It is not the definition of the times or the actions that took place. Existing during that time does not make you an authority, it only gives you an opinion based on your observations.
    My grandmother lived through WW2. She knows first hand about living through that time in this country. She does not know more about the history of the war as a whole. Her first hand experience is limited to her own observations. Same as yours.
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  13. #42
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    re:kpw

    Quote Originally Posted by kpw View Post
    My grandmother lived through WW2. She knows first hand about living through that time in this country. She does not know more about the history of the war as a whole. Her first hand experience is limited to her own observations. Same as yours.
    Yes, of course. However, my remark prefaced a comment on the fact that folks mistakenly blame "the press" whatever that is, Cronkite in particular, for the debacle. Its funny really, because that false claim helps to get Johnson and McNamara off the hook. I guess that is what I find so irritating, because those two deserve no mercy in our collective memories. When young people not around then blame "the press" they are giving those guys a "free pass."

    So, those people who weren't around or don't know how badly those two messed up, and who now are laying the blame on the press because they don't seem to know history better, really get to me.

    Does that make more sense?

    I'm not blaming the grunts. I'm not blaming the soldiers as a couple here have mistakenly thought. I'm blaming the very poor strategic judgment of Johnson and McNamara. The press only reported the basic truth which was that those two didn't know what they were doing. That the public turned was inevitable once the truth about their poor strategic and geopolitical thinking got out.

    They are who I was angry with back then, and that is who I am angry at today.

    Does that help explain it any or am I just being too inarticulate and upset by this subject that I need to get out of this discussion?

  14. #43
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    [QUOTE=Hopyard;1250281]
    Does that make more sense?

    I'm not blaming the grunts. I'm not blaming the soldiers as a couple here have mistakenly thought. I'm blaming the very poor strategic judgment of Johnson and McNamara. The press only reported the basic truth which was that those two didn't know what they were doing.
    QUOTE] The PRESS did not report the BASIC truth they didn't know how,that's a fact.I saw and heard some of their lies first hand.Never trusted the Press from 1967-68 on.You have drank the KOOLAID of the left./
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  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by kpw View Post
    ....betrayed by their government and the home news media.
    My words on page two and my dad's sentiments towards our government at the time. This thread was basically about Cronkite and his actions during the war. That's why it is fairly narrow in it's criticism. I'm sure cwblanco, SatCong and a few others can broaden that list, considerably, if you like.

    I never saw anywhere that you were blaming the soldiers. Never.
    I understand that the 60's might have been a bad time for you and it's not something you care to think about. Being as I spent the latter part of the 60's wearing diapers, I don't know much except what I hear from others that have been there. It's something that profoundly affected people I care about a great deal and I want to know what they think. Not just the people I know, but other's I don't know as well. When guys like cwblanco and SatCong feel like sharing their views about it, we all need to shut up and listen a bit.

    Don't take offense, Hopyard, but you probably shouldn't get involved in conversations that you don't want to think about.
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  16. #45
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    For SatCong

    Quote Originally Posted by SatCong View Post
    The PRESS did not report the BASIC truth they didn't know how,that's a fact.I saw and heard some of their lies first hand.Never trusted the Press from 1967-68 on.You have drank the KOOLAID of the left./
    O.K. So, are you saying that Johnson was right? McNamara was right?

    Is that your position?

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