Health Care Your Solution?

This is a discussion on Health Care Your Solution? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Firkin One question about your number 3 above. We hear a lot lately about how expensive the last three months of life ...

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 103

Thread: Health Care Your Solution?

  1. #31
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,597

    last 3 -6 months

    Quote Originally Posted by Firkin View Post
    One question about your number 3 above. We hear a lot lately about how expensive the last three months of life can be. Can you tell me when will YOUR last three months of life will be?
    At this point I can not tell you, for myself. But, very many people do reach a point at which they know quite firmly that there is a narrow window left.

    It has been my experience observing friends and relatives that often there is a remarkable precision to the prediction--especially with metastatic disease, cancer.

    Holding out false hopes based on wishful thinking and a do anything to prolong life attitude, no matter what, no matter how expensive, no matter how iffy, no matter what the odds, does not seem to me to be prudent or wise, and certainly isn't careful use of our dollars.

    Eighteen months ago my brother in-law died. He had been told he would die around christmas, and he in fact died on new years day, a few moments after midnight. For 4 years ahead of his departure, it was quite predictable that his demise was going to occur at about that date, no matter how much money (chemotherapy) would be thrown at his disease. A person reaches a point at which there is certainty within time bands that the end is going to happen.

    There is a big difference between withholding care that provides comfort, something that is not in any way moral, and putting oneself through agony in a hopeless quest for a few more hours or days.

    Yes, we hear of "miracles" from time to time, but in the real world there is both an inevitability of an end, and a predicatbility that a disease will run its usual course.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    1,263
    Doc - thanks for sharing your perspective

    I have private insurance. My current employer reimburses me, but the monthly cost is the same as what the total (employee contribution and employer balance) that was paid with employer sponsered plans I was on previously. I pay around $220/mo with a basic 80/20 plan.

    I'm very happy with my private policy. But I know these things can vary widely from state to state.

    Maybe this will be a craw in Hopy's side - but I really just don't see where the federal govt has the constitutional authority to be involved in my healthcare.
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  4. #33
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,597

    re: tinkerin and docdozer

    Quote Originally Posted by tinkerinWstuff View Post
    Doc - thanks for sharing your perspective
    My thanks to doc too. I think he made a very balanced sensible presentation. Great post.

    Maybe this will be a craw in Hopy's side - but I really just don't see where the federal govt has the constitutional authority to be involved in my healthcare.
    You know, I would be happy for Uncle to stay out of it if the rest of the states would do some serious experimentation the way Mass. has done. But, since they don't, someone has to get 'er done, and the general welfare clause in the preamble seems to me to apply.

    I would really like to see several things happen, somehow.

    Decouple insurance from employment.
    Get rid of pre-existing condition exclusions
    If it must be that insurance is left in the hands of private companies, at least keep them from gaming things and cheating on payouts

    I liked Kerry's proposal back in 2000 that Uncle should pick up catastrophic fees above 50K; sort of reinsure the insurance companies. He claimed at the time doing so would knock off 1K from insurance cost.

    I do want to make one clarification. Lots of folks mix up and confuse or conflate two entirely different programs. Medicare and Medicaid. THey are very different and should not be spoken of as if they were the same deal.

    This one ain't easy. But it is also not impossible to find solutions either.

    I would like to hear from DocDozer what he thinks about increasing supply of physicians, and if it is necessary.

    Also, re: exsoldier, it will get heated only if some of us lose our cool. I'll try to keep mine.

  5. #34
    Member
    Array Tmag's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    142
    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    The only true and simple solution is to pull the government out of the decision process all together.
    +1 It's the only way......
    Tom
    Osculare pultem meam! - Kiss my grits!

  6. #35
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,597

    Isn't this really what we have now

    In response to a comment by Pack that the only solution is to pull the government out....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tmag View Post
    +1 It's the only way......
    Isn't this really what we have now, and it doesn't work so good?

  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    1,263
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    In response to a comment by Pack that the only solution is to pull the government out....



    Isn't this really what we have now, and it doesn't work so good?
    Too-shay(spell?)

    That is kind of a blanket statement that would require more information/qualification.

    I don't want Govt healthcare, but that statement is a bit bewildering
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  8. #37
    Member Array docdozer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Maine
    Posts
    98
    Right now, the places that need physicians are rural areas that can't attract them because there isn't enough money there. I recently saw something that said the average medical student loan is 140k at graduation. That's the average. I had colleagues graduating at well over $200K. I will be paying my loans right up to the day I retire as it stands right now.

    IF reimbursment and doctor cost were the driving force AND we set the price, then maybe something would change. However, the number of doctors and the price are separated.

    For what its worth, I didn't pay myself for the first half of this year and neither did several of my colleagues, it's been stressful.

    There is a huge disparity between physicians salaries. I have a colleague who bills in one month what I bill in one year. Some of that is because he is as busy as can be and has several people working for him, but his reimbursement rate is much higher because of his subspecialty.

    It is really a complex problem and personally I would like to see a well thought out effort to develop a cogent system rather than try to ram bandaids through legislation. It would take more than a few months to work out the details me thinks.
    There's something happening here
    What it is ain't exactly clear
    There's a man with a gun over there
    Telling me I got to beware

  9. #38
    Member Array Firkin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    texas
    Posts
    183
    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    At this point I can not tell you, for myself. But, very many people do reach a point at which they know quite firmly that there is a narrow window left.

    It has been my experience observing friends and relatives that often there is a remarkable precision to the prediction--especially with metastatic disease, cancer.

    Holding out false hopes based on wishful thinking and a do anything to prolong life attitude, no matter what, no matter how expensive, no matter how iffy, no matter what the odds, does not seem to me to be prudent or wise, and certainly isn't careful use of our dollars.

    Eighteen months ago my brother in-law died. He had been told he would die around christmas, and he in fact died on new years day, a few moments after midnight. For 4 years ahead of his departure, it was quite predictable that his demise was going to occur at about that date, no matter how much money (chemotherapy) would be thrown at his disease. A person reaches a point at which there is certainty within time bands that the end is going to happen.

    There is a big difference between withholding care that provides comfort, something that is not in any way moral, and putting oneself through agony in a hopeless quest for a few more hours or days.

    Yes, we hear of "miracles" from time to time, but in the real world there is both an inevitability of an end, and a predicatbility that a disease will run its usual course.
    Saying that most medical costs occur in the last few months of life is simple a truism (like: "all unmarried males are bachelors"), and should not be used as justification for limiting care to the very ones who need that care the most. This truism is being used in the current debate to justify reducing care offered to the very people who need it. Consider the fact that a $500 Billion cut in Medicare is one of the proposals for how a government run healthcare option is going to be "financed."

    The simple truth of the matter is that when there is a single payer in the health care system, that single payer has a vested interest in seeing that people die sooner rather than later, thus freeing-up funds for those who, to tell the truth, are basically healthy and do not have a significant need for health care in the first place. This is the type of "cost cutting" that I have heard most over the past several weeks. Why have people been so upset about all the talk of "end of life counseling" for the elderly? People see the conflict of interest when the very government that will be administering the healthcare program is counseling people that they might just want to die instead, in order to allow younger people to live!

  10. #39
    Distinguished Member Array tinkerinWstuff's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Colorado Front Range
    Posts
    1,263
    Quote Originally Posted by docdozer View Post
    For what its worth, I didn't pay myself for the first half of this year and neither did several of my colleagues, it's been stressful.
    If it makes you feel any better, I'm on track to make less than half of the salary I made last year (current economy )

    It is really a complex problem and personally I would like to see a well thought out effort to develop a cogent system rather than try to ram bandaids through legislation. It would take more than a few months to work out the details me thinks.
    And I think that's hitting the nail on the head right there. Elected officials (many), seem to think this has to be done RIGHT NOW. I don't see why we can't take some real time to figure this out right. Right now it's become one party doing what they want and excuding conversations with the other followed by a bunch of bickering from both sides that continues to divide all of us.

    If the same number of folks from both parties would lock themselves in a room for the next 9 months along with experts from all the affected businesses (hospital, doctor, insurance), maybe they'd come up with something the majority can agree with.

    Problem is, it would have to be the moderates from both parties to get it done and there are some who will never give up there power long enough to let that happen
    "Run for your life from the man who tells you that money is evil. That sentence is the leper's bell of an approaching looter. So long as men live together on earth and need means to deal with one another-their only substitute, if they abandon money, is the muzzle of a gun."

    Who is John Galt?

  11. #40
    Member Array natticarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    cincinnati
    Posts
    138
    Couple points. One the government is definitely involved in the health care system and as I pointed out earlier (and backed up by the doc) medicare and medicaid dictate prices and to make up the difference other patients get charged more.

    The other government meddling is the tax write off for businesses that started the tradition of employers provided health care. This was a way for them to pay their people more during WW2.

    Doc the problem I have with mandated health insurance compared to mandated auto insurance is that mandated auto insurance is there to protect people you might victimize by being careless while driving.

    As for medicare being "pretty good" single payer system. This is true except for 2 problems.

    1.) It is growing much faster than we can support (financially) with a small portion of the population on it.
    2.) Everyone is paying to support a few people both through taxes (I notice it on all my pay checks) and making up the difference in their own costs for health care. If you extend this service to everyone imagine how the costs will explode. If you add medicare and social security to our national debt the number is more like 100 trillion rather than just 10. Paying for everyone is going to cause this debt to skyrocket. If you try to tax the difference you will start to notice that once you get above 50% total income tax that returns start to shrink.

  12. #41
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,597

    That is true for any payer

    Quote Originally Posted by Firkin View Post
    The simple truth of the matter is that when there is a single payer in the health care system, that single payer has a vested interest in seeing that people die sooner rather than later,
    This is of course true no matter who the payer is unless it is charity. Even your own family may at some point be quite willing to toss you on the heap to save themselves.

    So far, there is no indication that Medicare acts this way. As a genuine old goat, I'm not the least bit worried that I will be denied care that I truly need and would truly benefit me, solely to save a government operated insurance plan money. OTOH, my experience with private insurers has been such that I wouldn't trust them, and I don't.

    Why have people been so upset about all the talk of "end of life counseling" for the elderly?
    It is my understanding that the proposal has been badly misrepresented. All it is about is having the insurance plan (whichever one it turns out to be) pay for a session with your doc at which you can present your living wills, your Directive to Physicians, and make certain that your wishes are recorded in your doctor's records. It isn't about what the propagandists have suggested.

    People see the conflict of interest when the very government that will be administering the healthcare program is counseling people that they might just want to die instead, in order to allow younger people to live!
    Except that isn't what the counseling plan is about. It has been misrepresented. Again, it is only about paying for a visit with your doc at which point in time you can make your wishes known. It is something you would get to do once each 5 years--on the insurer's dime; you could do it any other time at your own expense, which is what happens today.

    I think the whole thing is a non-issue really. It has been blown up to stir emotions.

  13. #42
    Member Array natticarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    cincinnati
    Posts
    138
    Comparing medicare to what a full blown single payer system is not a complete picture as previously stated. Medicare is payed for by everyone who works but only supports a portion of the population. When you are covering everyone the debts will mount much faster and there will be desperate decisions to be made about how to control costs. As for me I much rather have my family decide whether or not I am worth it than some one who doesn't know me. I imagine the decision to throw me on the heap is much easier for the uninvolved party..... but then again.... maybe I should start being nicer to my family :)

  14. #43
    Member Array natticarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    cincinnati
    Posts
    138
    A simpler scenario ignoring the many moral dilemmas of a government making health decisions.

    If this was your family rather than society and you could not afford sub standard health insurance on your own finances. Would you be willing to take out a loan to try and get this sub standard insurance? This is not a scenario where you are sick or hurt and need it at that moment. I am just saying general coverage.

    A large # of people do find a way to finance their health expenses when they do need the care when they are sick or in an emergency. I think a much lower # are willing to take out a loan for insurance when they and their family are healthy. So what is the point? How is it moral to ask your government to take out loans to provide insurance if you are unwilling to do it for yourself?

  15. #44
    VIP Member
    Array Hopyard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Disappeared
    Posts
    11,597

    Medicare premium / income stream

    Quote Originally Posted by natticarry View Post
    Comparing medicare to what a full blown single payer system is not a complete picture as previously stated. Medicare is payed for by everyone who works but only supports a portion of the population. :)
    There are two (for simplicity sake lets say two) income streams for Medicare. One is the payroll tax we all paid (pay) while working.

    The other is a monthly premium which nowadays is somewhere around 96 dollars a month. That premium comes directly out of your social security benefits unless you are Medicaid eligible---too poor to pay the premium.

    I'm pointing this out because it isn't exactly correct that everyone is paying for the medical insurance of seniors. The medical insurance component is covered by premiums taken from seniors.

    It is the hospitalization component-- which hopefully one will never need-- which is supported by the payroll tax.

    Unfortunately, hospital care is unbelievable expensive these days.
    That part needs to be addressed some how. Else, we will be going into a black hole.

    Maybe we are all spoiled. I remember a time when if you went to the hospital you might end up in a ward with 10 other patients. Nowadays the modern hospitals all have plenty of private rooms. It is better, but then it is also more costly. I don't know where the cuts can be made. But they will have to happen one way or another, sooner or later, because we can't afford 17-20% of GDP for this one
    part of our life.

  16. #45
    Member Array natticarry's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    cincinnati
    Posts
    138
    Hopyard- True for part B but goes to as mentioned before doctors are charging others more to make up for the costs medicare refuses to pay. They are already anticipating a need to increase premiums rapidly in the coming years and eliminating the patients who are subsidizing the cost by adding them to the cost mandated system is going to exacerbate the problem.

Page 3 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Since health care is a right, here's a proposal.
    By JohnK87 in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: March 29th, 2010, 04:53 PM
  2. Gun rights and health care
    By Tom357 in forum The Second Amendment & Gun Legislation Discussion
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: March 15th, 2010, 09:56 AM
  3. Health care that could work
    By dukalmighty in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: February 21st, 2010, 09:10 PM
  4. The AMA and National Health Care
    By rottkeeper in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: August 11th, 2009, 10:51 PM

Search tags for this page

powered by mybb catastrophic health insurance
,

powered by mybb front range

,

powered by mybb health care bill

,
powered by mybb health care issues
,

powered by mybb health care legislation

,
powered by mybb medical schools, best quality of life for students
,
powered by mybb obama health care plan
Click on a term to search for related topics.