This is a discussion on The joys of being a gun dealer within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Few years old story but a good one: The joys of being a gun dealer Monster Hunter Nation Some names and identities have been changed ...
Few years old story but a good one:
The joys of being a gun dealer Monster Hunter Nation
Some names and identities have been changed to protect the criminally stupid.
As a local neighborhood Gun Monger, I get to meet all sorts of interesting people. A few nights ago was a perfect example of “interesting”. This individual comes into the shop, right before close of business, and says he wants to buy a gun. Okay, no problem, that’s what we do here. But then it took a turn for the weird. There were three of us working the shop that evening, (PvtPyle, Ice Dragon, and I) and we all got the same weird vibe off this guy. Think of Norman from Office Space. He was adamant that he had to have the gun THAT NIGHT.
I’ll call this guy Norman. So Norman looks at a couple of guns for all of ten seconds. It is obvious that he doesn’t know jack squat about guns or how to manipulate them, but he’s dead set on getting a gun right now. He’s creepy, weird, twitchy, barely coherent, and at this point I figure he’s either crazy, stupid, or an ATF plant checking to see if we’ll do something illegal. After a minute of (difficult) conversation with Norman, PvtPyle and I had already agreed he wasn’t getting a gun from us.
Now don’t get me wrong. I’m a 2nd Amendment absolutist. I think background checks are a tool of Satan. I’m in favor of machine guns for everyone. I think anybody should be allowed to carry a gun, Alaska style, with no permit necessary. A liberal could maybe, just maybe, on a really emotional day, talk me into a 24 hour “cooling off” period before allowing the purchase of a 155mm Atomic Howitzer. Maybe…
Okay, there could be legitimate reasons for Norman needing a gun RIGHT NOW, but as a dealer, if I think you’re going to take this weapon and go do something bad with it, to paraphrase the Soup Nazi, NO GUN FOR YOU!
So I waited for him to fill out the first couple of lines on the 4473 form, (because I dang sure wanted to know who he actually was) and got his ID. Then I started to ask him, point blank, why he absolutely needed the gun right now. He wouldn’t answer. So I flat out told him that I wasn’t going to sell him a gun if I believed that he was going to use it to commit a crime. He said he needed it for protection. I asked why tonight.
Because his ex-wife was coming to get her stuff, and see, it was really his stuff, ‘cause he paid for it… So he was going to shoot her if she came by… for protection…
Now I’m not an attorney, but I’m going to go out on a limb and guess that would be bad. Okay, we’ve got us a friggin’ brain surgeon. NO GUN FOR YOU!
We informed him that that wasn’t lawful self-defense, that was what is known as premeditated murder. I told him that the correct thing to do was call the local police, and have them present when the wife arrived, if he was really worried about protecting himself. He said that it wasn’t worth involving the courts. PvtPyle said that if it wasn’t worth going to court, then it wasn’t worth killing somebody. Then he asked if we wouldn’t sell him a gun, if he knew a place that rented moving trucks at night, so he could move her stuff away. Told him sorry, good luck buddy, have a pleasant evening.
So Norman left, and I took the 4473 form with all of his personal information and called the police department in his jurisdiction. I told them the story, gave the address, and that I thought there was a real good chance we had an individual planning on offing their wife over a domestic squabble.
Later that evening, Halo 3 was interrupted (I’m ¾ of the way through on Legendary, solo, because I’m a Bad Mother F’er) when a police investigator called me back, got the story again, asked a few questions to clarify, and then informed me that Norman was in custody. Apparently he decided to just go with good old fashioned assault and battery against his wife. The cops had swung by after my call, and picked him up in the act. Nice.
Now for an example of why gun laws suck, the doofus in question still went ahead with trying to commit a crime. No gun law prevented that, because he would have PASSED a background check. Background checks are a waste of time, as everybody who is an actual criminal knows they’re already going to fail one, so they’ll procure a weapon some other way.
I’ve never had a bonafide criminal try to buy a gun and fail a background check, but I have had perfectly good people get denied for a variety of stupid reasons that have nothing to do with crime.
But some liberal-ninny hammer can now bring up how waiting periods. Even if we had a waiting period in Utah, which we don’t, if I had sold Norman a gun, and he couldn’t pick it up until Tuesday, what’s to keep him from shooting his wife Tuesday? Nada. Because repeat it with me everybody, gun laws suck.
We will be much better off when we learn to deal with things as they really are, instead of how we wish them to be!
Amen to that.
Don't believe what you hear and only half of what you see!
Actually, to look at it another way; BECAUSE OF the gun laws, and the potential liability to dealers if they sell a gun to someone who uses it for a crime, this guy didn't get to buy a gun and kill his ex with it.
So, the gun laws stopped this potential crime from happening. In a round-about manner.
My best friends brother worked at a sporting goods store years back and had a guy that looked depressed looking to buy a gun. My friends brother didn't feel right selling him one and told him no. I don't remember the exact words. But no was final and the guy left.
A short time later it was his lunch break. When he got back to work there were cops everywhere. The guy came back and bought a gun from another sales person and shot himself behind the store.
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe. Albert Einstein
You are the kind of dealer I respect,some dealers wouldn't care if you walked in soaked in blood and asked to buy a gun,as long as you passed the background check they would sell you a gun.I think it needs to be brought up at Normans trial how he tried to posess a gun and made the statement he was gonna shoot his wife,that should hopefully get him locked up for a long time and you can sell his wife a gun and teach her to use it in case Norman decides she needs to be beat on again
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
Interesting story... very upstanding dealer...
"Texas can make it without the United States, but the United States can't make it without Texas!".... Sam Houston
NRA Life Member
Common Sense Prevails Again!
"A free people ought to be armed." - George Washington
I think Duke is pretty close to my own take on why gun laws like background checks suck. They are in the same category as the "0-tolerance" policies that get students expelled for having aspirin and nail clippers.
Suppose there are no requirements on dealers. The dealer in the OP sells the gun, Norman uses it to kill his wife, and the murder investigation starts. Eventually they find the shop where the gun was sold and determine that the gun was sold even though all three guys sensed something 'off' about Norman. The shop guys may get charged with criminal facilitation, or be held liable for wrongful death, because a decent attorney would show a jury that a Reasonable Man would not have sold Norman a gun that night...
Now put in background checks and such. The dealer runs the check, Norman passes, walks off with a gun and kills his wife. Same investigation dead ends because the shop guys shrug and say, "ATF and the State Troopers said he was okay."
In my view of the world, the gun sales laws take any sense of moral responsibility off the seller and turn it into a paper chase. Just like most other forms of government over-regulation are about moving responsibility off the individual and into a faceless bureaucracy.
“What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia
SIG: P220R SS Elite SAO, P220R SAO, P220R Carry, P226R Navy, P226, P239/.40S&W, P2022/.40S&W; GSR 5", P6.
to the OP gunshop owner and staff. With all of the laws in place that may have allowed this man to legally obtain a gun and their belief in the 2nd amendment, they had the insight to exercise a very important right. The right to refuse service to anyone.
Sure the gunshop owner may have been cleared in a court of law regarding his involvement in a legal firearms sale, but he'd be accused, tried, and hanged in the court of public opinion. Probably end up in civil court and lose everything he owns, even though he did nothing illegal. It's wrong but it's a reality in today's society.
Nobody can know the true intentions of another human being. You never know if someone is talking tough but if they give you clues like this guy did you better wake-up and smell the coffee.
In todays tough economy turning down a possible several hundred dollar transaction because it may not feel right is not very businesslike. But thankfully there are ethical gunshop owners out there who look past the $$$$.
NRA Life Member
With great power comes great responsibility.-Stan Lee
so as I'm reading this I got to wondering... as a dealer, can you deny him the purchase based on your vibes alone ?
Say I walk in, interested in a shotgun. Strike up conversation, and am the nicest, pro 2A, all American guy ever, but the shop owner/clerk gets a funny feeling. I have all the right answers to the questions, not depressed, nothing wrong or out of the ordinary, pass the background check, but they think something is up. can they deny the sale ?
Just an odd thought I had. Interesting story though. Wonder if his wife knows how much you did for her...
"Dead is dead"
"Yea, till we show up with jumper cables and drugs to debate it"
Great job "kdydak" on being a good judge of character
Kimber Eclipse Target 2
Glock 19 (3rd Gen)
Kahr PM9 (wife's edc)
NRA Life Member
It's just like any other transaction. A coffee shop can deny you a transaction because you rooted for the wrong team at the last football game.