Looks like E-Verify is going to happen after all.

This is a discussion on Looks like E-Verify is going to happen after all. within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Hopyard Cheap labor increases the calculated productivity, but not productivity itself. The increase comes about as follows: X amount of widgets produced ...

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Thread: Looks like E-Verify is going to happen after all.

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Cheap labor increases the calculated productivity, but not productivity itself. The increase comes about as follows:

    X amount of widgets produced by y dollars of labor = "productivity"

    Of course, productivity is really the production of the widgets and is divorced from the labor cost.

    More voodoo economics left over from the Reagan years. All used to beat down the working guy, till we get to today's mess.

    We have given the store away and the house, and the yard by adhering to the tenets of voodoo economics.

    I suppose Pack you will be just thrilled when illegals get hired to d your work. It could easily happen. There are plenty of network engineers, computer programmers, systems analysts and the like being produced in other countries and some find their way here both legally and illegally.

    Pack wrote:" In reality, cheap labor creates more production which usually leads to the need for more jobs. "

    First, following that logic, we should throw open our gates to millions of folks from India and Bangladesh.

    Second, if our own folks can't afford the things produced because they don't have jobs (today's world) then there will be no production.

    E.g., I know a man who worked for a company that makes heavy industrial production machinery. He was there for 10 years. Today there is no demand for building supplies; hence no demand for the machines his company manufactured, and no demand for his services. We beat wages down so far we shot our economy in both knees.
    Those who have no real concept of freedom always seem to resort to the claims of "beating down the working man" as if the man the working man is working for isn't working him/herself. Interesting quagmire that is.

    First> YES! Out of all the folks I've worked with, those guys not only KNOW the work inside and out, but work the hardest and do the best job for the money, because they have this...unfortunately faded vision of American dream where they learn as much as they can, work as hard as they can, and will be able to reap the products of that hard work. So they do the best they can to get here and work their asses off doing it.

    Second> If "our folks" can't afford the product, perhaps that's something they should rectify on their own, no? ...or maybe force the government to quit diddling around with the prices(gas/oil/electricity/"essential commodities" anyone?).

    As for your friend...The fact that there's limited demand for his work has nothing to do with illegals getting jobs and "beating down" wages. Beaten down wages is a product of producers trying to cut cost as they flail about in what's left of the ruins of free trade that have been effectively demolished by a government with severe socialistic/anti-freedom tendencies. In effect, the government screwed him over. However, He still has options, choices, and free will. Move, adapt, change...
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

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  3. #32
    Member Array JBozeman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Close the borders down, tight!
    Well said Ret!

    Boze
    Boze
    "If we lose freedom here, there's no place to escape to, this is the last stand on earth." Ronald Reagan

    "Gentlemen, Prepare to defend yourselves" SGM Basil Plumley

  4. #33
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    I'll finish your sentence and end my comment

    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    As for your friend...The fact that there's limited demand for his work has nothing to do with illegals getting jobs and "beating down" wages. Beaten down wages is a product of producers trying to cut cost ..
    by bringing in illegal immigrant workers.

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    by bringing in illegal immigrant workers.
    I really hate to laugh about this, but that was good. Left myself open on that one.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the **** out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
    -The Mist (2007)

  6. #35
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AutoFan View Post
    If you are working legally in this country, you have to have a valid Social Security Number. Now there is nothing to say that the valid SSN is the person's presenting it. Same goes for Birth Certificates. I agree that we should not have to produce an ID to get on a bus or a train or check into a hotel. I also know that employers either know or suspect when they are hiring illegals. Now they at least have some way to check such things if they are operating on the up and up. And fewer excuses if they are not.

    And as I recall, in most states you can get a photo ID that serves in place of a Driver's License for free or a very reasonable fee.
    Illegals have social security numbers too.

    I've seen some illegals who had as many as 7 social security numbers!
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Winston Churchill

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array Patti's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stanislaskasava View Post
    I agree with you that lazy people get their jobs stolen, but I'd like to point out that the fight is not fair. The fight is between legal labor and illegal labor. If you were in the business of selling car stereo equipment and some guy in the parking lot was undercutting you by selling stolen gear, would that be a fair fight? Of course he sells his gear cheaper. If he charged the same price, he would have no customers. Who would take the risk of buying stolen gear if there was no incentive (cash savings)?

    You're making it sound like employers are just looking for the best workers and they are willing to risk violating the law to get them. No. The employers in question hire the cheapest labor they can get, which is cheap because it's illegal.
    You are correct.

    It is an unfair playing field when a legitimate contractor (who employs US citizens) has to compete in the bidding process against an unscrupulous contractor who hires cheap (illegal) labor.
    Socialism is the philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance and the gospel of envy. Winston Churchill

  8. #37
    Restricted Member Array SelfDefense's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    Clearly we have a great philosophical difference. Who is cheating whom?
    Illegals and their supporters are cheating Americans. It is not necessarily just the job issue but the fact is that this OUR COUNTRY. We developed the country. We paid the taxes to build the infrastructure. We paid for national defense to provide an environment so AMERICANS can thrive. We did not build this country so unwelcome thieves can illegally sneak in and use the resources we built and defended with our blood and treasure. And that includes American jobs.

    As to the open borders comment, open borders have nothing to do with allowing some unknown person to enter your private property/residence at will. There is a huge difference between privately owned property and open land, which the collective(government) falsely claims ownership of.
    Falsely claims ownership? No, our vorders define the boundaries of our nation. Our land was won in battle and purchased from other nations. It is most definitely our land, our nation and NO ONE has a right to negate our property rights. There is NO difference between privately owned and land collectively owned by the American people. In neither case should an unwanted invader be tolerated.

    oh and don't lump me in with Libertarians. They want anarchy. I don't.
    No borders is anarchy.

  9. #38
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    Pack, this ones for you :)

    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    I really hate to laugh about this, but that was good. Left myself open on that one.
    It hurts a lot more when its martial arts.

  10. #39
    Senior Member Array stanislaskasava's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    We're not talking about stolen gear here. We're talking about two people making an agreement where 1 agrees to work for 2, and 2 agrees to pay 1 the agreed upon amount. It has nothing to do with stolen property. Again. Define illegal and then ask yourself why it's illegal. It's not illegal just because. It's illegal because they work under the table in such a fashion that many times Uncle Sam isn't able to ROB THEM.
    I'm trying to follow you here... Are you saying that our government doesn't like people working 'under the table' because we are unable to collect taxes and that is why 'undocumented immigration' is illegal?

    If this is what you are saying, it proves that we are not in a fair fight. An illegal alien, working under the table, is able to work for a lesser wage, because he keeps his whole paycheck (in cash), while a U.S. citizen working legitimately has to pay his taxes and feed his family, pay the rent, etc. Call it a 30% advantage, easily. I still have no idea why you feel this is a fair fight. Do you, by chance, know some people who are working illegally?

  11. #40
    Member Array Faitmaker's Avatar
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    Can someone please tell me why there is a mistaken belief that those who follow a Libertarian mindset are anarchist? One wants to see less government (guard our borders, etc) and the other wants to see the government go away completely. Libertarians are the original conservatives and wish for less government like Republicans say they do. To say they are anarchists is just blatantly wrong and ignorant of what their goals are.

    Also, to remain on topic, we are talking about people who are illegally here. The fact that they are illegally here seems to keep being overlooked. Nothing more really needs to be said. They are illegal. They do not pay taxes but reap the benefits (infrastructure, etc). And the fact that we have states where they can actually apply for welfare benefits and get them.. It makes my head spin. They are ILLEGALLY here.
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." - Ayn Rand

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