Religious beliefs and self defense? - Page 3

Religious beliefs and self defense?

This is a discussion on Religious beliefs and self defense? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by 1911luver ... the commandment "thou shall not kill" ... I have always taken this to mean: thou shalt not murder . In ...

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Thread: Religious beliefs and self defense?

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911luver View Post
    ... the commandment "thou shall not kill" ...
    I have always taken this to mean: thou shalt not murder. In that, harming innocents is verboten, while stopping criminals is to be expected. And, if criminals and what they cause demand the severest determination and response in order to be eliminated, then so be it.

    I also believe there is one true sin: being disrespectful of the gift of life. To disregard its protection and safety is insupportable. To fail in its protection and safety is a shame. To cast away life as if it's unworthy of protection and safety is unforgivable.

    However if one is forced to do so does this mean they will be commended to hell,for the act of murder?
    I believe there is a strong distinction between killing and murder. It's the distinction between what a parent does when protecting a child, versus what a criminal does when greedily taking everything another has. I believe that being forced to halt a murder via any means necessary (including killing) is not a crime, either in the eyes of man or God. YMMV, on that one.

    For myself, I won't allow my life or the lives of my loved ones to be taken without a fight, without a serious attempt to protect the mighty gift (life). That would be a sin, and that is something I will not do.

    It's one of the tougher questions. Check with the "Robes" (priest, pastor, father) on that one.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.


  2. #32
    Member Array Nova's Avatar
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    I too am Catholic and I had to look it up, but the Catechism says it thusly:

    Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 3 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 2 ARTICLE 5

    Legitimate defense

    2263 The legitimate defense of persons and societies is not an exception to the prohibition against the murder of the innocent that constitutes intentional killing. "The act of self-defense can have a double effect: the preservation of one's own life; and the killing of the aggressor. . . . The one is intended, the other is not."65

    2264 Love toward oneself remains a fundamental principle of morality. Therefore it is legitimate to insist on respect for one's own right to life. Someone who defends his life is not guilty of murder even if he is forced to deal his aggressor a lethal blow:

    If a man in self-defense uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repels force with moderation, his defense will be lawful. . . . Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one's own life than of another's.66

    2265 Legitimate defense can be not only a right but a grave duty for one who is responsible for the lives of others. The defense of the common good requires that an unjust aggressor be rendered unable to cause harm. For this reason, those who legitimately hold authority also have the right to use arms to repel aggressors against the civil community entrusted to their responsibility.



    Basically, it is most important to protect your life, and you would be remiss if you did nothing to defend yourself against a murderer. Furthermore, if you are able, it is right to defend the lives of innocent people. Those "who legitimately hold authority" are the police of course. But when the police are not available, we are responsible.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Array mi2az's Avatar
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    Its not "Do Not Kill" its "Do not Murder"


    Killing is OK, Murdering is not

    Big difference. Need to know the Hebrew Translation
    "When the people fear the government you have tyranny...when the government fears the people you have liberty."

    --Thomas Jefferson --

  4. #34
    Senior Member Array Pure Kustom's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't care what the bible has to say on self defence. If it's my life or theirs. To bad for them.........

  5. #35
    Senior Member Array 1911PKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pure Kustom View Post
    Personally, I don't care what the bible has to say on self defence. If it's my life or theirs. To bad for them.........
    Sorry ya feel that way....this country was founded on biblical principals and the founding fathers had that in mind when they wrote the constitution and the bill of rights. That's why we are able to buy guns and you can make those neat holsters we carry them in.
    "Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom" Gen. George Patton

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Pure Kustom View Post
    Personally, I don't care what the bible has to say on self defence. If it's my life or theirs. To bad for them.........
    Which is what it comes down to, in practice. Quite simply, them's the choices when a predator is actively aiming to take everything you have in this world.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #37
    Senior Member Array 1911PKR's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Which is what it comes down to, in practice. Quite simply, them's the choices when a predator is actively aiming to take everything you have in this world.
    You wouldn't have "them's the choices" if it weren't for the founding fathers biblical foundations. Thinks hard about that! 2nd ammendment come to mind?
    "Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom" Gen. George Patton

  8. #38
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911PKR View Post
    You wouldn't have "them's the choices" if it weren't for the founding fathers biblical foundations.
    No, actually when a predator is actively attempting to take everything you have, you do have just those two choices: him or me.

    That's been so since the dawn of time. It's how Nature works. It's the food chain, pure and simple. Hancock et al had little to do with it, though, granted, they gave some edge back to the upstanding free citizen. Still, them's the choices: live or die, him or me, do it or not.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Array Pure Kustom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    them's the choices: live or die, him or me, do it or not.
    Amen!!!

  10. #40
    Senior Member Array Pure Kustom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911PKR View Post
    Sorry ya feel that way....this country was founded on biblical principals and the founding fathers had that in mind when they wrote the constitution and the bill of rights. That's why we are able to buy guns and you can make those neat holsters we carry them in.
    I don't think the constitution was founded on biblical principals. It was written by good people. If it was so biblical, Then why is their a seperation of church and state?

    It's the Bill of Rights , not the 10 Comandments.

  11. #41
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    This is not the place for a religious discussion that could go on forever.
    Keep it on track.
    I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.


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  12. #42
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911luver View Post
    I've always believed that "thou shall not kill"
    I made a slight change to my personal belief for this one. "Thou shall not kill first".
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

  13. #43
    Member Array CJ810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gottabkiddin View Post
    I made a slight change to my personal belief for this one. "Thou shall not kill first".
    If they kill first you may not get to kill second. :-)

  14. #44
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  15. #45
    VIP Member Array gottabkiddin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CJ810 View Post
    If they kill first you may not get to kill second. :-)
    I wasn't sayin that.

    My post was a reflection of my attitude towards taking the life of another. Truthfully, I'd just a soon beat the snot outa the BG as shoot him. I'm a firm believer in threat assessment. If I feel a minimal threat, I'm gonna act accordingly in defense of my well being. It depends on the attacker how far we take the altercation. It's as simple as that for me. I'm not gonna pull my weapon unless I intend to use it, and by use it I mean, squeeze the trigger with intent.
    "He that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one." Luke 22:36

    "If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." Thomas Jefferson

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