LEOs don't think people should have rights?

This is a discussion on LEOs don't think people should have rights? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; I read this story from PoliceOne about a motorcycle gang that is planning retribution against some LEOs for a member who was killed. So far ...

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Thread: LEOs don't think people should have rights?

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    LEOs don't think people should have rights?

    I read this story from PoliceOne about a motorcycle gang that is planning retribution against some LEOs for a member who was killed. So far there are 9 comments. Of those, 2 say the gang should have no rights. I really have a problem with this. PoliceOne vettes there members as sworn LEOs before they are allowed to comment. Now, I am not big on giving offenders the kiddie treatment, but our nation and our standard of justice is bound by rights. Not only should an accused have their rights, but those rights are in place to ensure fairness, and to make sure that no innocent person is found guilty. Eliminating the rights of accused citizens always leads to societal abuses far worse than what it replaced. It really disturbs me that 2 of 9 posters, sworn LEOs, don't seem to understand this. Perhaps they already engage in some form of denial of rights, since that is what they believe. Police agencies have an obligation to ferret out and retrain/remove LEOs who have this type of attitude and belief system.

    Alert for Va. cops: Biker gang may retaliate
    Alert for Va. cops: Biker gang may retaliate

    Richmond Times-Dispatch


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    DINWIDDIE COUNTY, Va. ó Area law enforcement agencies began issuing alerts this evening that a motorcycle gang may be organizing to exact retribution for the shooting death of a Dinwiddie County man earlier today.

    A Richmond police department bulletin warned that members of the Pagans motorcycle club are forming in nearby states and may be traveling to the Richmond area.

    The broadcast bulletin said that some sort of revenge may be sought against agents with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives or local law enforcement.

    The bulletin warned officers to stay clear of any member and to call for backup.

    Earlier today, a man identified in the bulletin was shot and killed as federal agents and others attempted to serve a search warrant in Dinwiddie County. The man, identified by state police as James M. Hicks Jr., 45, was taken to VCU Medical Center in Richmond, where he was pronounced dead, said state police Sgt. Thomas Molnar.

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    9 Member Comments
    The comments below are member-generated and do not necessarily reflect the opinions of PoliceOne or its staff.

    Page 1
    Posted by 106mpd on Thursday, October 08, 2009 06:27 AM Pacific Report Abuse
    Anyone have problems with Black Pistons, a version of Outlaws? We are starting to see them here.

    Posted by thetick on Thursday, October 08, 2009 06:21 AM Pacific Report Abuse
    If you are in the Philly area, also be mindful of the alleged Pagan affiliates... the Mavericks, Lucky 7s, and Iron Eagles.

    Posted by Rhino56 on Thursday, October 08, 2009 03:21 AM Pacific Report Abuse
    Reatliation against the police.....Hmmmmmm BRING IT MF!

    Posted by wmccarty on Thursday, October 08, 2009 00:18 AM Pacific Report Abuse
    Very good points posted here regarding using military tactics to take these dirtbags out and charging them with conspiracy. No rights should be afforded these POS scumbags. Act like an animal, treated like an animal.

    Posted by Solo508 on Wednesday, October 07, 2009 07:13 PM Pacific Report Abuse
    It would be really stupid for those guys to retaliate. They haven't seen a roundup until they try to take up arms against law enforcement. The Pagans would end up getting converted too late.

    Posted by cpd014 on Wednesday, October 07, 2009 06:35 PM Pacific Report Abuse
    If they have obtained intelligence that the motorcycle gang is preparing to exact retribution why would they not call in the alphabet police or surronding agencies and charge the leaders with a conspiracy charge before any leo's are injured or forced to kill someone.

    Posted by NPDStang on Wednesday, October 07, 2009 02:54 PM Pacific Report Abuse
    How far this gang issue has to get out of control for something to be done?

    Posted by maynr on Wednesday, October 07, 2009 01:59 PM Pacific Report Abuse
    I say that we treat gang members along the same lines as terrorists. No rights should be accorded to them. Fight them with army tactics.

    Posted by crazyblue on Wednesday, October 07, 2009 01:18 PM Pacific Report Abuse
    i will never understand why there is retaliation against police. we have a job to do. they know they are in the wrong and that we will be coming for them someday. be safe brothers it is getting to be more and more dangerous out there.
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  3. #2
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    So what?

    A bit out of context... but sure, act like terrorists, get treated as such. I dont see a problem with the comments. Everybody has an opinion, as these posters are posting there own opinion. They are not acting as LEO's or representing a LE agency.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  4. #3
    Member Array ibesarcasm's Avatar
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    Yes and no...... Nobody should have their rights absconded before they are in a court of law, even if they really SHOULD be......
    But Sixto is right, they are only opinions...... when the court time comes all will have to be justified, but it is sad to hear a comment like that IF they really are LEO's..... then again, we are all human.....emotional, irrational human beings....
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  5. #4
    Senior Member Array PointnClick's Avatar
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    I know more about bikers than cops. Let me assure you, Pagans are serious. They are dangerous by definition, and threats of retaliation should be taken seriously. These guys aren't Bernie Maddoff that you take in cuffed in the front. They will resist, almost certainly with violence, and if they have to go to prison, that's OK... it will just be a reunion with old buddies.

    The terrorist analogy fits... and you can bet the rent that the Pagans will kill in service to the club. I don't want to see anyone's rights violated, but LEO is smart to view these people with extreme prejudice...
    "Who is to say that I am not an instrument of karma? Indeed, who is to say that I am not the very hand of God himself, dispatched by the Almighty to smite the Philistines and hypocrites, to lay low the dishonest and corrupt, and to bust the jawbone of some jackass that so desperately deserves it?"

  6. #5
    Senior Member Array rolyat63's Avatar
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    While I don't disagree that LEOs have opionions and are entilted to them but as many have cautioned posters on this very board these are in the publice domain. IF one of these bikers or their lawyers got a hold of this AND the officers making these types of public statements were involved in some way with them or their clients they would get a chance in front of the jury to explain their opionion on abrogating someone's rights and how it affects the performance of their job.
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  7. #6
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    Here's the story: (it maybe another 'raid' that was unnecessary....)


    Police, victimís family, friends differ on shooting
    By Mark Bowes

    A Pagans Motorcycle Club member was fatally shot by police at his Dinwiddie County home after he refused an order to drop a shotgun as state and federal officers entered to serve a search warrant, state police said yesterday.

    After announcing their presence and forcibly entering the house in the 10000 block of Halifax Road early Tuesday, the officers were confronted by James M. Hicks Jr., 45, who was armed with a shotgun, said state police Sgt. Thomas Molnar.

    Hicks was then shot multiple times after he refused to drop his weapon, Molnar said. He died of a gunshot wound to his torso, according to the state medical examiner's office.

    Molnar declined to identify the officer who fired the shot but said he was a member of the Virginia State Police tactical team. The officers forced their way inside after no one answered the door, Molnar said.

    The police account of Tuesday's events conflict with a statement issued earlier yesterday by Hicks' attorney, who said Hicks was armed but did not brandish, point or fire his gun as the officers entered. A close family friend who has talked to Hicks' wife said yesterday that Hicks grabbed his shotgun because he believed someone was trying to break into his house.

    The friend, who was afraid to be identified, said Hicks complied with police demands and lowered his weapon.

    Defense attorney John Rockecharlie, who was representing Hicks on a felony drug charge in Chesterfield County, said yesterday that federal agents didn't find any contraband during a search of his home after the shooting. A police source disputed that but did not provide details.

    Rockecharlie said he has been in contact with Hicks' family, including his wife, who was inside the house when her husband was shot.

    "His family and friends are devastated," Rockecharlie said in a prepared statement. "They are at a loss to understand why the police handled the situation in such a manner. James did not fire, point or brandish a firearm at any officer.

    "In the chaos that was created by the police smashing down the door to his home, James was taken from his loved ones," the attorney added. "We hope the authorities look closely at the actions of the police officers."

    Rockecharlie said he didn't know whether Tuesday's raid by state police and agents with the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives had anything to do with Hicks' arrest in July on drug and gun charges in Chesterfield.

    A felony charge of possession of methamphetamine was certified against Hicks last month to a Chesterfield Circuit Court grand jury.

    According to court documents and Rockecharlie, Hicks was arrested July 11 after a state trooper stopped him on Interstate 95 near the state Route 10 exit in Chesterfield.

    Hicks was riding his 1999 Harley-Davidson motorcycle and wearing Pagans paraphernalia, including a jacket with the club's emblem on the back. He was stopped for wearing a nonapproved helmet.

    According to court records, Hicks cooperated with the trooper who stopped him and told the officer "everything he had on him."

    That included a .357-caliber Smith & Wesson pistol in his motorcycle saddle bag, along with 0.068 grams of powdered methamphetamine, 3.8 grams of marijuana and four tabs of a pharmaceutical drug that Rockecharlie said he had a prescription for. Those pills contained hydrocodone and dihydrocodeine, according to a state laboratory report.

    At a court hearing Sept. 18, Hicks was convicted of a reduced count of possession of drug paraphernalia for the marijuana offense; prosecutors withdrew a concealed-weapon charge. A grand jury was to have considered an indictment on a felony drug charge in November.

    Brian Swann, resident agent in charge of the ATF's Richmond office, did not respond yesterday to questions about the raid and whether it was related to a larger federal operation that involved the arrests Tuesday of dozens of Pagans motorcycle members in several mid-Atlantic states on racketeering, firearms and extortion charges.

    Court records list Hicks' occupation as a mechanic/welder. A company spokeswoman for Truck Service of Virginia in Disputanta confirmed Hicks' employment there and described him as a reliable, hard-working employee.

    "He could have been a rough person because of his physical stature, but he did not throw it around at all," said Wayne Godfrey, Hicks' former boss at Diversified Manufacturing in Hopewell. "We always called him a teddy-bear type."
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    Senior Member Array hayzor's Avatar
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    When Iím king of the world, there are plenty of peoples rights that Iíd take away. Iím not king of the world. These cops arenít either, but they are entitled to their opinion and doing everything they can to come home at night.
    Make threats against me or mine, and the last thing Iím concerned about is your rights.
    Iím not a LEO.

  9. #8
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    I’m sure Hicks was not a nice person. In fact, he was probably a complete scumbag but he still had rights. If you don’t like that concept, you have no business being in law enforcement. The key words are “Law Enforcement”. In other words you are to “Enforce the Law and protect people’s rights” for everyone. In addition, you are “Innocent until proven guilty” which is a concept we seem to have forgotten in this country. I am not saying this guy was not waving his gun around in a menacing manner and deserved to be shot. I am saying that I don’t like to hear police say because they define him as a scumbag he has no rights. They may start to define carry permit holders in the same manner some day.
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  10. #9
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    But, if you read the quotes, they said they shouldnt have rights... not that they do not have rights. There is a huge difference in those key words.

    As an LEO, there are plenty of people that I think should not have rights especially due process. That is my right to feel that way and I'm not ashamed or afraid to admit it. However, I also know that the do have rights and understand the full scope of due process.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  11. #10
    Senior Member Array stevem174's Avatar
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    Both as a medic and as a C/O, I have ran into several people that have done some horrendous things to their victims. I have THOUGHT they should have no rights, not even the right to breath. However, there is a difference between my thoughts and my actions. I have always treated them with firmness, fairness and consistency. I have never withheld or based my treatment on my thoughts. I have no problem with the LEO’s thoughts and I see no reason to believe they have acted inappropriately.
    Don't do things you don't want to explain to the Paramedics!

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  12. #11
    Senior Member Array jca1's Avatar
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    Honestly, some people don't deserve any rights.....yet we have no right to decide who.
    If I gave a crap about what you think about my guns.....it was early this morning and I already flushed it!

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    Quote Originally Posted by stevem174 View Post
    Both as a medic and as a C/O, I have ran into several people that have done some horrendous things to their victims. I have THOUGHT they should have no rights, not even the right to breath. However, there is a difference between my thoughts and my actions. I have always treated them with firmness, fairness and consistency. I have never withheld or based my treatment on my thoughts. I have no problem with the LEOís thoughts and I see no reason to believe they have acted inappropriately.
    BTDT... I've had to place a sheet over the corpse of a woman killed by her husband and then treat the superficial wounds of the man that killed her and transport him to the hospital. Did I do my job professionally? Absolutely! Was I seething inside? I'll neither confirm nor deny that. I will say, we had a history at that residence. Long standing domestic violence situation. Woman would move out and go to shelter, only to go back and try again.

    I see nothing wrong with the comments on that Police One posting. Cops circling the wagons and showing support for each other. Getting death threats from outlaw biker gangs is no small thing and tends to rally the troops.

    I didn't see where they plan on vigilante retaliation on the part of LEO's. Just voicing their opinions and providing support.
    -Bark'n
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    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    I can't imagine someone posting a thought or feeling that they would not actually carry out.

    Oh wait, yes I can.
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    Member Array tapout1003's Avatar
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    I don't have a problem with LEO expressing their opinion. Threats against family or friends from a gang of thugs are a serious matter.

    Not to hijack but whats the deal with all the MC activity lately ? It seems like the numbers are growing in my area.
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    Who makes the decision on who has rights and who doesn't?

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