How many of you lift and/or train in unarmed fighting? - Page 2

How many of you lift and/or train in unarmed fighting?

This is a discussion on How many of you lift and/or train in unarmed fighting? within the Off Topic & Humor Discussion forums, part of the The Back Porch category; Originally Posted by Hopyard I agree that hand strength is very important. And for folks in your profession who may need to run and chase ...

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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I agree that hand strength is very important. And for folks in your profession who may need to run and chase a BG, cardio endurance is important.

    I don't see cardio endurance as important for the ordinary civilian, with respect to SD. Ordinary folk's encounters with BGs tend to be brief and violent, a few seconds. No long foot chase involved. No special need to have great cardiac endurance.

    I'm too old to run fast, but for younger people I think one of the most important tools besides H2H is an ability to "explode" and get off the X and keep running.
    Cardio just isn't about running. It about being able to stay in the fight. If a BG gets you wrapped up on the ground, and you are worn out in a minute or two, you just made his goal a lot easier. Or how about a brief struggle, elevated heart rate and ad dump... don't you think you will be in much better shape to shoot your attacker or whatever fine motor skill is needed to get away? Just being able to think clearly is helped with improved cardio endurance.
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  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array Guardian's Avatar
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    I'm a big advocate of the MA/SD world and being able to defend yourself without the aide of a weapon if it should happen or employing anything and everything as a weapon. I've trained in the Martial Arts and Self-Defense world for 23+ years, but I am welll aware that I am still no match for a doped up maniac, but for the normal would be punk(s), I have and can hold my own. I don't want to anymore, but can if it comes to it.
    "I dislike death, however, there are some things I dislike more than death. Therefore, there are times when I will not avoid danger" Mencius"

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    Cardio just isn't about running. It about being able to stay in the fight, if needed. If a BG gets you wrapped up on the ground, and you are worn out in a minute or two, you just made his goal a lot easier. Or how about a brief struggle, elevated heart rate and ad dump... don't you think you will be in much better shape to shoot your attacker or whatever fine motor skill is needed to get away? Just being able to think clearly is helped with improved cardio endurance.
    I will second this all day. I can hop on a bike and ride for hours, but when I am in my TKD class and we do heavy warm ups and then spar, I am normally spent after 20 minutes of fighting. And this isn't the kind of fighting you do when you can die if you loose.

    I have also noticed when we have heavy training days and then to target punching one can miss the targets the longer you go. When all muscles are in play oxygen is used up much faster.
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  4. #19
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    I've done free weights on a routine basis for over 30 years now. I don't pretend to think that it's for SD purposes, but more for health and a sense of well being. I also find that my coordination is enhanced when I'm in shape vs. slacking off.

    I learned basic martial arts during my LE training in the Coast Guard, and found that the few times that I've been in a tangle, that they were brief and to my advantage (okay, I did once get cold-cocked with a big ashtray when I didn't see it coming).

    I don't train like a ninja though. I'd love to take a course someday, but based on available time, I get by with reading/lifting and practicing at the range.
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  5. #20
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    Being armed is one thing that allows us ladies to try and equal the playing field. We cannot go toe to toe with a male usually since body/weight/strength just aren't there for us. That said, I think working out with weights, cardio and MA training are all a part of a total package. Being in the martial arts for a lot of years, I have learned about myself and my capabilities. As a color belt, you think you can do everything. As a black belt, you become more aware of what you can and cannot do and choose those things/weapons accordingly.Someone my size I feel confident in taking on. A 250lb. guy-that's why I carry. Not to say I won't fight back as hard as I can and having fitness and training will give you more "in the tool box". As tsaphah said-the chance of being attacked vs the chance of becoming old...+1 on that!
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  6. #21
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    I lift weights 3-4 times a week with cardio mixed in about 2 times a week.

    Martial arts or hand to hand training once ever week or two.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob P. View Post
    Fitness has its place. However, do not believe that you are the equal to some loaded crackhead just because you lift weights and/or are "trained."

    That's just plain arrogance.

    LEO are "trained" and they "work out." Yet, they STILL try not to handle crackheads by themselves because they know that the crackhead might win in any hand-to-hand. It's hard to stop someone who feels no pain and is nothing but screaming angry and violent. No pain and no rational thought = almost impossible to stop.

    If you are often in harms way, you should be fit. But, you should work on your SA more because that's the FIRST TOOL in the toolbox.
    SA is my first line of defense, I won't argue that. However many thread here discuss training or being ready to do things quickly, even considering things that take tenths of seconds between you and safety. Different ways to draw, carrying methods, point shooting versus sight picture, considering difference scenarios, they all focus on making the most of your situation and include the smallest things most people wouldn't normally think of. So, if encounters take place under that 21' mark and face to face, my reasoning was why not have strength on your side as well as training and awareness. If he tries to stab me and I am fighting for a knife or my weapon, why not have strength as well as training on my side? If someone is cracked out and doesn't feel pain, does it hurt to be trained and strong?

    On the point of fist to fist fighting, I have been in some scraps and usually just take the guy down and go for the choke or joint lock. Being stronger in that case has been my upper hand, but I will admit drunk college kids are different than a cracked out person wanting to take my life.

    Leo's never try for crack head encounters alone, however in many mugging/robbery scenarios we will not have the opportunity to call for back up, nor will we always be able to draw our weapons and use them.

    As the saying goes. It not the size of the dog in the fight but the fight in the dog.
    True, but no one screws with a big dog that has fight.
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  8. #23
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    Does cardiac rehab count?

    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    In my opinion, carrying a gun is pretty irresponsible if it is your only option. A lot of gun guys don't like to hear it, but you do have to be pretty fit, even if the gun is your first option.
    If you are in your seventies (or older), my hat's off to you. If not, wait awhile and reassess you statement.
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  9. #24
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    I heard this mentioned the other day, and its something I have been thinking about.

    I currently have minimal h2h training (I took some karate class 13 years ago when I was 7 ish, that I can't even remember the name of the style). When I start working, and have a few dollars to spend I do plan on finding a SD class of some sort. Krav Maga seems really interesting to me, but I have to find a class suited towards overweight, broke, college kids with no history in martial arts.

    Till then, and with a dash of or
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Echo_Four View Post
    In my opinion, carrying a gun is pretty irresponsible if it is your only option. A lot of gun guys don't like to hear it, but you do have to be pretty fit, even if the gun is your first option.
    If you are in your seventies (or older), my hat's off to you. If not, wait awhile and reassess you statement.
    Everyone deserves the ability to defend against violent criminal attack. Even the unworthy and unwashed.

    There are any number of reasons a given person cannot achieve stellar fitness worthy of a 20yr old, across a lifetime. The beauty of a firearm is that, like a catastrophic insurance policy, can still help guard against the worst possible situations (threat of violent death) even for those people not so blessed by health as the youthful, the strong. Those who have been injured, damaged, the elderly, the weak. There are millions of such folks, for whom a black belt in whatever is simply wishful thinking.

    Having only a firearm on a given day, for me, isn't hardly relegating me to thinking of all things as "nails," as some would put it. It merely requires me to deal with all problems short of deadly threat in a normal, unarmed fashion. So be it, since carrying a vast array of alternate tools and achieving "master" status in a variety of physical disciplines doesn't seem to be on the menu this year, given my physical defects. Sam Colt would understand. It is what it is.
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  11. #26
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    I just got back into martial arts after several years off. Which means I hurt for at least a couple of days a week. That will go away after a few weeks. It helps with balance, fitness and flexibility. There is also the self defense aspect. As someone on the back side of 40, I know I will probably never get back to where I was, due to injuries and aging.

    But even when I was a twenty something guy going for my black belt, I knew there were situations and people I did not want to take on, or if I did take them on, I would most likely end up inured, beaten or worse.

    That is where weapons come in. Weapons are force multipliers. Guns are the ultimate force multiplier, in that they allow someone who can only pull a trigger to take down the biggest, meanest bad gun on the planet.

    So back to the OP's question, yes I do work out with weights and martial arts.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array Rob P.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Machina View Post
    SA is my first line of defense, I won't argue that. However many thread here discuss training or being ready to do things quickly, even considering things that take tenths of seconds between you and safety. Different ways to draw, carrying methods, point shooting versus sight picture, considering difference scenarios, they all focus on making the most of your situation and include the smallest things most people wouldn't normally think of. So, if encounters take place under that 21' mark and face to face, my reasoning was why not have strength on your side as well as training and awareness. If he tries to stab me and I am fighting for a knife or my weapon, why not have strength as well as training on my side? If someone is cracked out and doesn't feel pain, does it hurt to be trained and strong?

    On the point of fist to fist fighting, I have been in some scraps and usually just take the guy down and go for the choke or joint lock. Being stronger in that case has been my upper hand, but I will admit drunk college kids are different than a cracked out person wanting to take my life.

    Leo's never try for crack head encounters alone, however in many mugging/robbery scenarios we will not have the opportunity to call for back up, nor will we always be able to draw our weapons and use them.



    True, but no one screws with a big dog that has fight.
    If I have situational awareness, there's a better chance that the BG won't GET within 21 ft before I'm already reacting. If, on the off chance the BG happens to get within h2h distances, and/or I wind up facing a BG with a knife then that's a whole 'nother ball game.

    A knife fight isn't going to be pretty. AND it isn't going to be a wrassle on the ground situation. It's going to be bloody BUT the guy with the gun IS GOING TO WIN if he keeps his head.

    I carry a gun. I am NOT going to get into a wrestling match with someone while carrying that gun. You might, I won't. I'll kick, scream, jump, run or whatever I have to to get enough distance to protect myself with the weapon I choose to be proficient with.

    Why? Because not everyone fantasizes that they are Bruce Lee. Plus, I'm older, slower, and a lot smarter than I used to be when it comes to physical violence. Eventually you will be too. Once you lose the invincibility idea.

    It's not about "fighting." It's about winning and that's all that matters.

  13. #28
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    People seem to have taken offense to my post. For that, I apologize. But I also stand behind what I said.

    There are of course exceptions to every single rule that has ever been created. If you suffer from a disability that prevents you from doing much, then you'd be exempt from this one- to some degree. However, I don't think I'm going to be granting that one to too many people. My mom just hit 65. She has been classified as 100% disabled for years due to an injury she sustained on duty as a police officer. 8 back surgeries later, steel that replaces many vertebrae in her lower back, and the associated issues- not to mention the fused neck from a break at c3-4. Despite all of this, she still does what she can to maintain fitness.

    No, we're not all going to be fighting in the UFC. But if you think that having a gun on your hip wards off evil, you're incorrect. If you think that the gun is always the answer, or that you'll always be able to get to it, you'd be incorrect again. So, we should focus on being prepared for as many situations as possible.

    If you aren't able to do much, that's OK. But you should do what you can. You may find it allows you to do much more than you previously thought possible.
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  14. #29
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    I lift 4-5 times a week (but not same body parts--one should allow a body part to rest between sessions), and have studied a Chinese martial art named Choy Li Fut. I also bicycle 10-15 miles per day.

    The martial arts--at least in my experience--are relevant to handgun shooting. My grip strength has improved tremendously, so why would I need (or want) to get a trigger job done on a double-action revolver?

    Hitting the ground is (or should be) a common experience in a martial arts studio, and you are expected to keep fighting once you're down.

    There was an even more relevant side benefit that was extremely valuable to the handgun which I want to share: A common stance in many martial arts--and Choy Li Fut is no exception--is called the crane stance. In this stance, you are balanced on one foot with the other foot elevated and cocked at an angle.

    I practiced it with an ankle weight of the kind used for running, and the light bulb went off!

    It is excellent for drawing from an ankle holster. What's more, the martial arts teach you to balance on uneven terrain, and practicing crane stance (there are many variations, depending upon the art) helps you draw from an ankle holster without toppling over.

    To the best of my knowledge, Choy Li Fut (gung-fu), Goju Ryu (Okinawan Karate), Shito Ryu (Okinawan Karate), Uechi Ryu (sometimes treated interchangeably with a system called Pwang Ghai Noon), Shotokan (Okinawan Karate), Tai Chi Chuan (Chinese health-giving physical therapy-type exercises), White Crane (gung fu), Northern Shaolin (gung fu), and, undoubtedly, many others all use variations of the crane stance.

    If you practice martial arts, then carefully consult your sifu or sensi, being mindful that many of these people are deeply offended by guns . . . and that you are quite likely to compromise your teacher-student relationship if you don't take certain cultural values into consideration.

    If you do practice with this idea, please consider that I used a fake gun that had the same weight, feel, and heft as my snub-nosed .38 Special. I also practiced on different surfaces like sand, gravel, oil, staircase, etc., and I practiced with different kinds of shoes and a variety of different clothes. I even practiced with a full backpack to see how it would throw off my balance.

    There are many other stances that are relevant to drawing and handling a gun, but you get the idea. I'm prejudiced in favor of Choy Li Fut, as there is a lot of focus on flexibility and endurance, and also because the art originated in guerrilla warfare against an oppressive, genocidal government (the Manchu), and it seems to have the flexibility to adapt itself to the use of many weapons (firearms included) and for fighting more than one opponent at a time.

    Even though I'm prejudiced in favor of Choy Li Fut, probably almost any established, time-proven martial art will work as well. When all is said and done, you get out of it what you put into it.

    Please note that I don't consider certain types of self-defense practice to be valid if they are only practiced under ideal conditions.

    I hope this helps.

    Best,

    ---Kevin

  15. #30
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    I've done Karate for a few years, and there are multiple reasons that I like it and think it benefits my self-defense. It teaches awareness of yourself and your surroundings. You learn deescalation and how to appear nonconfrontational while still preparing to take an attacker out. The workouts are intense and lead to general health. And you never know when you will run out of ammo or have a jam, so being able to work unarmed is a great tool.

    It has taught me a lot about judging oponents and reading sittuations, and in general, martial arts training increases self confidence. And not looking like an easy mark/victim will keep you out of a lot of problems in itself.

    I would suggest some sort of unarmed self-defense training for anyone who is serious about their safety and well-being.
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