PayPal "anti gun"?

PayPal "anti gun"?

This is a discussion on PayPal "anti gun"? within the Old Forum News, Feedback, Problems & Comments forums, part of the DefensiveCarry.com Forum Office category; I have to admit something to our members. Every time I hear someone jump in and say that PayPal is "anti-gun" I bristle. I have ...

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Thread: PayPal "anti gun"?

  1. #1
    DC Founder
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    PayPal "anti gun"?

    I have to admit something to our members. Every time I hear someone jump in and say that PayPal is "anti-gun" I bristle. I have heard it for years, but have never heard a single fragment of tangible evidence that they actually are. Is this another Internet "myth" that is self perpetuating and have people passing it on as gospel even when there is absolutely no basis for it? I wanted to know so I have done some quick research.

    If anyone has anything more than has been presented here, PLEASE post what you KNOW here (not simply BS you've heard). We all want to know.....

    The first link is PayPal's official policy which does disallow the purchase of guns, weapons and ammunition unless it is a PayPal pre-approved merchant; even their policy has an exception. It is doubtful, if they are truly "anti-gun", that they would have any exceptions to this rule.

    I'm not real sure that I would process these transactions myself, if I owned a transaction processing company, given the liability and litigous nature of everyone these days. If you want to blame someone, blame the system, including overzealous lawyers and judges that hold anyone and everyone responsible (make them a target) when an opportunity arises.

    http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr...ide&ed=weapons

    The first is really pretty interesting:
    http://www.njcsd.org/forum/showthread.php?t=66

    And this one, too:
    http://www.njcsd.org/content/view/106/25/

    I also found this quote on a website of a custom holster maker (http://www.simplyrugged.com) that also believes they are anti-gun, but addresses the problem trying to do business without supporting them:

    I will shed pay pal as soon as I find something more gun friendly. We are working on that at the moment. BUT, virtually EVERY credit card processing agency is anti gun- and is connected to a banking Corp that is anti gun so do we not use anything? Gearpay is the only pro gun credit card processor around and they have very limited capabilities and are still connected to anti gun institutions through MC and Visa- it is a no win situation. We all use either Microsoft or Apple Products to communicate and those rat ******** are anti gun as well- (in spite of the little known Microsoft Gun Club) It can drive me to distraction thinking about it. So, in the meantime, I will use pay pal; they are secure and simple to use.
    Even the FreeRepublic uses PayPal:
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/891468/posts

    Everything I have read regarding PayPal being considered anti-gun comes from their business policy, which looks more like an attempt to limit their liability. It's a simple business decision which in no way exposes a single person at PayPal that is ant-gun. To me, this is akin to mass hysteria, the very thing that makes the liberal anti-gun types so "up in the air" about everything. The only tangible evidence I see (where their PAC money is going) shows them to be somewhat pro-gun.....

    We accept PayPal here, for donations, for one simple reason. More of your donation goes to us rather than the company that processes the transaction. That puts alot of small businesses into business when the other guys take such a big bite out of funds. Without PayPal, we would not accept donations. Without accepting donations, we would not have had the funds needed to move this site. Without the ability to move the site, I would have closed it when we had our previous problems. And, no, I don't own any stock in or have any interest in PayPal.

    Okay, off my soapbox, turn in your evidence here.....
    Bumper
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  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Blackeagle's Avatar
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    PayPal is a wholly owned subsidiary of eBay. So you (and the people saying PayPal is anti-gun) should really be looking at eBay's policies as well as PayPal's.
    Arborigine likes this.

  3. #3
    Senior Member Array sisco's Avatar
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    As I understand it, Ebay and PayPal are both based in California, and we all know how restrictive Cali laws are concerning firearms.
    While they appear on the surface to be anti-gun, in reality they are forced to conform to California law concerning firearms and related transactions.
    Disclaimer: I'm no expert, didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn.
    I'm a child of the 60's, but I got over it.

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Bud White's Avatar
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    counting i have paid for guns gun parts and other goodies and never had a problem it makes me wonder

  5. #5
    Ex Member Array Pete's Avatar
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    PayPal and eBay are both just being cautious.

    We could always go back to sending a pigeon with a little sack of gold tied to his leg, but I prefer PayPal.

  6. #6
    VIP Member Array Redneck Repairs's Avatar
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    Guys i am one of them Ebay/pay pal is bad folks . I dont post to convince anyone . I post to maby explain my feelings on the issue . I have this friend who lives out of a wheelchair , and that is fine , hell i can hardly call this guy handicapped in life muchless online . He happens to own an old Kawasiki shop , and has many desireable parts from the late 70s and back archived . Over the years i have taken a lot of pics of said motorcycle parts for him , and at times upped them ect. I have had access to his ebay acct. and know for a fact the worst thing he ever did is traffic in high end 10-22 parts . He might buy something , put it on , and if he did not like it resell it as used ... this worked good for a while .. untill ebay killed his acct ( with over 150 positive and NO negitive feedback , i have no idea how many transactions ) . they killed his acct for violating thier tos on guns , in spite of the fact he never sold a part on ebay that had not been sold before on ebay . The next day pay pal also advised him he was no longer a " valued customer " and terminated his ability to pay/recieve funds thro them . With a little immoral skullduggery he is back on ebay , and pay pal , under a different name and doing ok on it . He no longer will list anything that has " gun " in it tho , and will not pay for nor recieve payment if gun is in a field . ( not just gun but the common words and phrases , he will sell you a slightly used milled tube for projectile stabilization but not a barrel. so far this has worked for him . Anti ?? Cautious ?? Ass... erm... i cant say the word ... Whatever it is it benifits us little , and we should at least ( as its practical ) limit our use . I will still use pay pal , i just make it my last choice , if it costs me a buck to spend 5 bucks otherwise , well i will spend the buck .
    Make sure you get full value out of today , Do something worthwhile, because what you do today will cost you one day off the rest of your life .
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  7. #7
    VIP Member Array sass20485's Avatar
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    I paid for several guns and gun parts etc using paypal. I and the seller were careful not mention in so many words that the item was a GUN.
    So far no problems. But, I've heard talk of folks being kicked off for gun transactions.

  8. #8
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    Ditto:
    Whatever California State law restricts in the way of firearms and accessories is taboo on both PayPal & Ebay.

    Paypal is pro money not anti gun.

    Ebay got hauled into court and the courts rules that all Ebay sales fall within the parameters of CA State law. End of story.
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  9. #9
    Distinguished Member Array p8riot's Avatar
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    Here is a link to PayPal's Firearms Policy. It may be because it is a California Based company, but it is very inclusive. Not even parts or C&R weapons are excluded.

    https://www.paypal.com/us/cgi-bin/we...ame&ed=weapons

    Firearms, Weapons, and Knives Policy
    FIREARMS
    You may not use PayPal in the purchase or sale of any firearm unless the seller has been expressly approved by PayPal as detailed below. This includes all rifles, shotguns, and handguns, whether for use in sporting, as collectibles, or curio and relic (C&R) firearms, and regardless of their present working order. Furthermore, PayPal defines "firearm" consistent with the U.S. Code and, as such, prohibits frames, receivers, or any other serialized firearm components. For more information, please refer to U.S. Code Title 18, Section 921

    Exception for Imitation and Non-Powder Guns
    PayPal permits the use of its services in the sale of certain properly-conforming replica (imitation) guns, paintball guns, blank guns, and "air-soft" guns. These items must display all markings required by law, must not be able to be readily converted to shoot a lethal projectile, and blank ammunition must not be included in the sale. In addition, as no one under the age of 18 is permitted to use the PayPal Service, regardless of the jurisdiction, under no circumstances shall the use of PayPal be permitted by persons under the age of 18 for the purchase or sale of any gun, including replica (imitation) guns, paintball guns, blank guns and "air-soft" guns. For more information regarding regulations applicable to the sale of imitation firearms, please refer to U.S. Code Title 15, Section 5001. The sale of imitation guns may be regulated differently outside the U.S., and international buyers and sellers must abide by these laws accordingly.

    FIREARM PARTS AND ACCESSORIES
    You may not use PayPal to purchase or sell any firearm receivers or frames, components and parts of receivers and frames, or "cut" or "80%" receivers. PayPal also does not permit assault weapon-related parts and accessories, firearm silencers, and kits designed to convert a firearm to have automatic firing capability. This includes the sale of any parts or accessories prohibited for sale by the National Firearms Act or other federal or state law, including items related to short-barreled shotguns or short-barreled rifles, fully automatic weapons, large-capacity magazines, multi-burst trigger activators and camouflaging firearm containers.

    For more information about the National Firearms Act (NFA) and its requirements, please refer to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms website.

    AMMUNITION
    You may not use PayPal to buy or sell high-capacity magazines (those which hold more than 10 rounds), ammunition with propellant (e.g., gunpowder), or blank ammunition unless the seller has been expressly approved by PayPal as detailed below. The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellant powder designed for use in any firearm.

    DESTRUCTIVE DEVICES
    You may not use PayPal in the purchase or sale of any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas bomb, grenade, grenade launcher attachment, rocket, missile, mine or similar device. Examples: Molotov cocktails, anti-tank guns (over caliber .50), bazookas, and mortars.

    MILITARIA AND ORDNANCE
    PayPal prohibits the use of its services in the purchase or sale of equipment or supplies issued to and formerly used by United States Armed Forces that have not been disposed of in accordance with Department of Defense demilitarization policies. Sales of such items may constitute violations of federal law.

    Furthermore, you may not use PayPal in conjunction with the sale of ordnance (military weaponry, ammunition, and related parts) unless you can provide official documentation from the U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) stating that the item is unserviceable or demilitarized. Contact your local ATF office for more details on obtaining such documentation.

    WEAPONS
    You may not use PayPal in the sale of certain hand weapons that are illegal according to federal or state laws including: nunchaku; brass or other metal knuckles; leaded canes/staffs/crutches/sticks; zip guns; shurikens/ throwing stars; hand grenades or metal replica hand grenades; and billyclubs/batons, sandclubs, sandbags, or slingshots (also known as saps or blackjacks). For any other hand weapons, sellers must make certain that the weapon is legal in all countries in which it will be available for purchase.

    STUN GUNS
    You may only use PayPal to sell stun guns to the extent permissible by law. Sellers are responsible for reviewing the laws in their location and the location of the buyer and ensuring that sales are legal in both locations before completing such transactions.

    KNIVES
    In general, you may use PayPal in the legal sale of knives, subject to the following exceptions:

    * Switchblade Knives. You may not use PayPal in the sale of switchblade knives. A switchblade knife is defined as any knife that resembles a pocketknife with a blade that can be released automatically or by use of a trigger. Other names for switchblades include spring-blade knife, snap-blade knife, gravity knife, and butterfly knife.

    * Disguised Knives. You may not use PayPal in the sale of knives disguised to look like a harmless item. This includes, but is not limited to: belt buckle knives, cane swords, shobi-zue, lipstick case knives, air gauge knives, and writing pen knives.

    In addition, as no one under the age of 18 is permitted to use the PayPal service, regardless of the jurisdiction, under no circumstances shall the use of PayPal be permitted by persons under the age of 18.

    PRE-APPROVED MERCHANTS
    You may not use PayPal in the purchase or sale of firearms or ammunition unless the seller has received prior approval from PayPal. PayPal reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to permit its payment services to be used for the legal purchase and sale of certain firearms and ammunition regulated by this policy. Approval to use PayPal for the sale of certain firearms or ammunition will only be permitted after a thorough review of the procedures and controls the seller has in place in order to ensure transactions and shipments are conducted in compliance with all applicable laws and regulations.

    If you or your business requires approval to engage in the sale of firearms or ammunition in accordance with this policy, please send your contact information and a brief summary of your business to:compliance@paypal.com.
    "You can get more with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." - Al Capone

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  10. #10
    Senior Member Array downrange's Avatar
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    i guess the "copyright post" started this but i suppose it is an issue. it really doesn't seem (to me) to be about paypal's or ebay's personal preferences but by CA's laws. really, can you think of any "mailing" opportunities or even any "post office" that would ship firearms or parts there of. it seems they have no choice but to be between a rock and a hard place considering all transactions end with mailing the product. when you get that big, you start to see $ signs and do what's best for that only, and then... play the game. it's sad, but maybe i'm missing something else.
    Last edited by downrange; May 9th, 2007 at 11:17 PM.
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  11. #11
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Nobody needs to know the nature of a transaction but the buyer and seller.

    An amazing variety of goods or services can be transacted using an innocuous subject such as "$549 for trade goods" or "$350 for services per arrangement". Works very well, and neither PayPal nor Ebay need to be party to the details. They're providing for the payment of the transaction and nothing more.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by downrange View Post
    it really doesn't seem (to me) to be about paypal's or ebay's personal preferences but by CA's laws. really, can you think of any "mailing" opportunities or even any "post office" that would ship firearms or parts there of. it seems they have no choice but to be between a rock and a hard place considering all transactions end with mailing the product. when you get that big, you start to see $ signs and do what's best for that only, and then... play the game. it's sad, but maybe i'm missing something else.
    That's pretty much my feelings on it. They are a business, not an individual and, as a business owner, you have to make business decisions that are good for the business, not necessarily for you, personally. Shareholders demand that businesses act in the interest of the business. That means money. And there's nothing wrong with making money.

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Nobody needs to know the nature of a transaction but the buyer and seller.

    An amazing variety of goods or services can be transacted using an innocuous subject such as "$549 for trade goods" or "$350 for services per arrangement". Works very well, and neither PayPal nor Ebay need to be party to the details. They're providing for the payment of the transaction and nothing more.
    And, although they can't come right out and say that, I'm sure they are fine with these transactions, too. Simply don't ask, don't tell. But don't be surprised if you violate the Terms of Service. They are the rules according to California law and you shouldn't be surprised when you break the rules and lose an account. It's easy enough to open another account....
    Bumper
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  13. #13
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    Post Just FYI

    Just to let you'all know what originally sparked this all off with Ebay and the courts years ago and why the case went to CA court in the first place.
    It was because some Ebay sellers were caught shipping firearms directly to home addresses VIA U.S. Mail and were caught.
    I believe it all happend after an underage kid bought a handgun and the seller shipped it directly to his home.
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  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Just to let you'all know what originally sparked this all off with Ebay and the courts years ago and why the case went to CA court in the first place.
    It was because some Ebay sellers were caught shipping firearms directly to home addresses VIA U.S. Mail and were caught.
    I believe it all happend after an underage kid bought a handgun and the seller shipped it directly to his home.
    Yup, that would certainly explain their policy. I bet California beat them into submission over it. I think if we are going to be pissed off at somebody, it needs to be the state of California and their legal system....
    Bumper
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  15. #15
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    That was what I got from a member of the Ebay legal staff back when you could actually call and talk to somebody. Those days are gone though. Of course he could have been BSing me.
    He was a real persnickity over-educated "talking to a brick wall" sort of dude.
    I had it out with Ebay after they terminated one of my auctions for an antique bearskin rug because it violated the Ebay California "Restricted Bear Parts" laws.
    I have no idea what their policy is NOW but, back then - even a 100 year old perfectly legal Bear Skin Rug could not be sold on Ebay...even though I lived in PA and my showing high bidder was from Ohio. Far away from California but, it was still an Ebay No-No.

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