My NRA instructor was very against open carry

This is a discussion on My NRA instructor was very against open carry within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Sounds like the instructor was teaching his personal beliefs. Though I have heard it put quite well before that, the NRA has it's base interests, ...

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Thread: My NRA instructor was very against open carry

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array canav844's Avatar
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    Sounds like the instructor was teaching his personal beliefs.

    Though I have heard it put quite well before that, the NRA has it's base interests, and that is sportsman rifles not in self defense, and so they don't make an excess effort to promote OC beyond the need for hunters; simply as a matter that it is not part of their core mission.

    SigGuy, Massad Ayoob's book "Concealed Carry" there is a chapter on Open Carry where he discusses the very subject of being a target and relates a first hand experience.

    IMO there is a time and place for OC and time and place for CC, both have positives and negatives, and different applications of the law apply to the different methods in different locations. And it's something that should be considered and thoughtful choice made on the basis of the best matter to carry for the situation for self defense.

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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array Super Trucker's Avatar
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    Even instructors have to be taught. If you teach a teacher something dumb, they will in turn teach dumb stuff..

    Somewhere along the way, he was told that OCers are targets and so he spews that trash on to his students.

    I have heard only zero times that it has happened in real life, so I just laugh when people parrot that garbage.

    Read this story to him.
    Open-carry-deters-armed-robbery

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    Arrogance is a real deterrent to folks new to firearms.
    Yup! And arrogance is a close cousin to elitism -- both of which play into the hands of the antis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Trucker View Post
    Even instructors have to be taught. If you teach a teacher something dumb, they will in turn teach dumb stuff..
    Yup! That happens.

    However, in the case of an opinionated, arrogant elitist their teaching of their elitist opinion is going to happen, anyway. Even if their teacher had presented a balanced program, the arrogant elitist will have filter out all that doesn't fit his/her preconceived opinions and then goes on to teach their brand of opinion; and/or the arrogant elitist seeks out "teacher/mentors" who share their brand of arrogant elitism.
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  5. #19
    Senior Member Array Herknav's Avatar
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    I'm guessing his bias is connected to his fiduciary interest in concealed carry. If people find out they can open carry without a license, they might forgo training from guys like him. :)
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  6. #20
    Member Array MIKEV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Bennett View Post
    Lets face it Open carry is not "educating" anyone and for the general public it more scares or makes people want to stay away from the person open carrying even if they are acting "normal"..so when they think about people carrying guns they think about the guy open carrying and how it "bugged" them when if the same guy were CC they would never have known....
    I am abit confused by the above statement.

    How is exposure to LAC's OC NOT educating anyone? The more people see LAC's going about their everyday live's, just like everyone else, with an openly carried Defensive Firearm, the more common it will be, the less uncomfortable people will be. CC is not education it is secrecy (not that it's bad).

    Think of what kind of education you would have gotten had your math teacher wrote all the lessons down on a pad on his/her desk and kept a blotter over them, rather than on the chalkboard for the whole class to observe? 2+2=4 long before any of us even knew how many 2 was.

    MikeV

  7. #21
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    The reaction one might get to OC depends entirely on the area. In Alaska and WA. it's common to see OC and no one (except those CA weinies who moved there) takes exception. In a populated downtown areas in a state where every other truck does not have a rifle in the rack, it would draw notice.

    Sometimes (and it may be intentional) OC can be taken as an "in-your-face" display, and that is what needs to be avoided.

    I feel that instructor was a little over the top in several ways. When someone bursts thru your front door at two am, that's not the time to be trying to open the safe.
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  8. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    When someone bursts thru your front door at two am, that's not the time to be trying to open the safe.
    Hard to improve on that.

    As much as I love my boys, I am glad to be an empty nester. They know not to bust thru my door unannounced -- same as I know not to do the same to them. Only thing that might upset me is that they might now be better armed than me

  9. #23
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEV View Post
    I am abit confused by the above statement.

    How is exposure to LAC's OC NOT educating anyone? The more people see LAC's going about their everyday live's, just like everyone else, with an openly carried Defensive Firearm, the more common it will be, the less uncomfortable people will be. CC is not education it is secrecy (not that it's bad).

    Think of what kind of education you would have gotten had your math teacher wrote all the lessons down on a pad on his/her desk and kept a blotter over them, rather than on the chalkboard for the whole class to observe? 2+2=4 long before any of us even knew how many 2 was.

    MikeV
    That is a simple but, not accurate analogy and is like comparing 2 entirely different unrelated issues. We have first amendment rights that guarentee free speech, but it is not a good idea to yell "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater, as this may get you into trouble. Most people have preconcieved ideas about issues from the start. Look no farther than right here on this forum site, everyone has an opinion, regardless of experience level, or personal prejudices. I think everything has its place, and it is important to make the intelligent decision here. Know your audience.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    A little info on OC in Maine, and maybe the reason why the Instructor had his own thoughts about Open carry. I got this from the maine OC law..
    "Summary
    Maine is a traditional open carry state. It is perfectly legal and acceptable to carry a firearm openly. However, you may only carry a loaded handgun in a vehicle, openly or concealed, if you have a Maine permit."
    Now I'm from NH and work at KTP in maine. We see a LOT of people coming thru the Store, stopping to handle the guns and other stuff we have. Most of the People, are from other states south (Ri, NJ, CT, Ma, NY City) and maybe several others of maine that don't really have the opportunity to OC like others do.
    When these types see a OC in public (and BTW I have NO issues with OC) they somtimes begin to freak out, because they're not accustomed to seeing it.
    Personally I have never OC'd but that's my decision I've CCW'd for 34 years in Ma, NH, Me, Utah but id OC works for you, then I say go for it!
    I'm sure the original poster has taken the CCW class in order to get the Maine Permit, as it's illegal to OC in a vehicle without a Maine CCW Permit.
    I think the Instructor just wanted to make sure his students were covered legally when they OC
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  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Trucker View Post
    Even instructors have to be taught. If you teach a teacher something dumb, they will in turn teach dumb stuff..

    Somewhere along the way, he was told that OCers are targets and so he spews that trash on to his students.

    I have heard only zero times that it has happened in real life, so I just laugh when people parrot that garbage.

    Read this story to him.
    Open-carry-deters-armed-robbery
    That's a great example of the deterrence value of OC. There are many more. While CC gives you defensive ability, I'd prefer the need to not arise in the first place.

    In regard to OC making you a target, I believe that real life experiences trump opinions and "what if" scenarios, so I've done a lot of searching. Gun grabbers sometimes do go after their hate objects, like LEO's and armed security, but not citizens. The only documented case I could find of an OC'ers gun being targeted by BG's is back in 2006: Fairfax County Office of Public Affairs A related newspaper article mentioned the guy was out walking his dog; he apparently needs to get a bigger dog.

    The most important thing is that this is the ONLY case I've found and it is 4 YEARS AGO. I now believe that OC is an effective deterrent with no real downside. I OC pretty much everywhere, and CC only in rare special circumstances.

  12. #26
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEV View Post
    I am abit confused by the above statement.

    How is exposure to LAC's OC NOT educating anyone? The more people see LAC's going about their everyday live's, just like everyone else, with an openly carried Defensive Firearm, the more common it will be, the less uncomfortable people will be. CC is not education it is secrecy (not that it's bad).

    Think of what kind of education you would have gotten had your math teacher wrote all the lessons down on a pad on his/her desk and kept a blotter over them, rather than on the chalkboard for the whole class to observe? 2+2=4 long before any of us even knew how many 2 was.

    MikeV
    Quote Originally Posted by Vegas Rick View Post
    That's a great example of the deterrence value of OC. There are many more. While CC gives you defensive ability, I'd prefer the need to not arise in the first place.

    In regard to OC making you a target, I believe that real life experiences trump opinions and "what if" scenarios, so I've done a lot of searching. Gun grabbers sometimes do go after their hate objects, like LEO's and armed security, but not citizens. The only documented case I could find of an OC'ers gun being targeted by BG's is back in 2006: Fairfax County Office of Public Affairs A related newspaper article mentioned the guy was out walking his dog; he apparently needs to get a bigger dog.

    The most important thing is that this is the ONLY case I've found and it is 4 YEARS AGO. I now believe that OC is an effective deterrent with no real downside. I OC pretty much everywhere, and CC only in rare special circumstances.
    If someone is out to get you, it does not matter if you CC,OC or whatever, you will probably not get a chance to break leather. If, criminals target LEOs as you stated, then by your own words OCers are targets because many people who OC state that many people think they are off duty or plainclothed LEOs. I can give you several examples of open carry working against people, and not from some pseaudo research, but from 22 years of street work and cleaning up messes people who thought they knew something got themselves into. Its a crazy world out there and just because we think something is logical or makes sense does'nt always pan out in the real world.

  13. #27
    Member Array Vegas Rick's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    If someone is out to get you, it does not matter if you CC,OC or whatever, you will probably not get a chance to break leather. If, criminals target LEOs as you stated, then by your own words OCers are targets because many people who OC state that many people think they are off duty or plainclothed LEOs. I can give you several examples of open carry working against people, and not from some pseaudo research, but from 22 years of street work and cleaning up messes people who thought they knew something got themselves into. Its a crazy world out there and just because we think something is logical or makes sense does'nt always pan out in the real world.
    Missed my point. I'm not talking about someone out to get me specifically, just about being a random victim of a mugging or shooting. Facts show it is less likely when OC'ing than when CC'ing, based on published reports.

    My "psuedo reasearch" shows that criminals DO target the guns carried by those they already dislike (LEO's, etc) but DON'T attack civilians like me going about my daily affairs.

    The Brady Bunch would be sure to publicize reports of OC's being targets IF they were happening, yes?. So only one published report in the last 4 years seems a bit more than just casual research, yes? Where are your examples to the contrary, by the way?

    Your opinion based on unsupported theories is OK for you, of course, but until the FACTS change I'll go with the odds.

  14. #28
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Negative opinions towards OC are a dime a dozen now days. To those I ask should I OC or not carry at all because that is my choice I chose to carry, OC, to protect myself and loved ones. Firearm rights/laws affect all of us OC, CC, at home carry what ever... the crazies in the government make one law that restricts firearms IT AFFECTS ALL OF US. don't hate on people because you don't like their form of carry, as it maybe there only choice. (as in my case)

    We are all in the same boat like it or not. So don't just pick a side, Pick the side that keeps all of us armed and secure, not weak and timid.
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  15. #29
    Member Array MIKEV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Most people have preconcieved ideas about issues from the start. ..... everyone has an opinion, regardless of experience level, or personal prejudices. I think everything has its place, and it is important to make the intelligent decision here. Know your audience.
    I ask you this. Is a "preconcieved idea" based on ignorance worthy of "re-education"? I do believe everything has it's time and place. I also believe the time and place for the excercise of an un-alienable fundamental right is all the time and everywhere.

    JMO
    MikeV

  16. #30
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Hey, I understand this is an issue many people get emotional about. It would take me along time to convey case material on what I have seen happen in 22 years. I am not picking sides, nor basing my opinions on my likes or dislikes of the issue. I just KNOW, what I have seen over time. My emotions are not in this. If you disagree, it's like Burger King, have it your way. It's ultimatly you on the line if you are caught up and get in over your head.

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