My NRA instructor was very against open carry

This is a discussion on My NRA instructor was very against open carry within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by retsupt99 Ask him if it's RKBA or RKB C A...I'm just sayin'... +1 I have the same question for the NRA generally. ...

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Thread: My NRA instructor was very against open carry

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Ask him if it's RKBA or RKBCA...I'm just sayin'...
    +1 I have the same question for the NRA generally. IMO they are a"gun Industry" lobbying group meaning that business is their priority not our rights. This moron (IMO) instructor is a prefect example. Fact is if more people OC'ed more folks would see "normal" people carry without issue and so guns generally would be less of an issue.
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MIKEV View Post
    I ask you this. Is a "preconcieved idea" based on ignorance worthy of "re-education"? I do believe everything has it's time and place. I also believe the time and place for the excercise of an un-alienable fundamental right is all the time and everywhere.

    JMO
    MikeV
    I understand your point of view. However let us remember that discrection is the better part of valor. If things go badly like I have read in some instances of people OCing in Walmart and shooting the ceiling, among the most recent, people could get turned off and laws. could be made to prohibit OC. Remember the supreme court ruling on freedom of speech ? It was upheld that certain types of speech could be limited due to some people taking things to the extreme. I am on your side, I just think we have to be smart how we represent gun ownership.

  4. #33
    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    Well, the NRA is not a friend of OC, and more than a few NRA instructors are FUDDs, so I, for one, am not surprised...
    2nd Amendment: because personal violence never makes an appointment.
    Evil resides in the heart of the individual, not in inanimate objects.
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  5. #34
    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by spec View Post
    negative opinions towards oc are a dime a dozen now days. To those i ask should i oc or not carry at all because that is my choice i chose to carry, oc, to protect myself and loved ones. Firearm rights/laws affect all of us oc, cc, at home carry what ever... The crazies in the government make one law that restricts firearms it affects all of us. Don't hate on people because you don't like their form of carry, as it maybe there only choice. (as in my case)

    we are all in the same boat like it or not. So don't just pick a side, pick the side that keeps all of us armed and secure, not weak and timid.
    qft.

    2nd Amendment: because personal violence never makes an appointment.
    Evil resides in the heart of the individual, not in inanimate objects.
    Proud Member of GeorgiaCarry.Org

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by C Bennett View Post
    just opinions I dont like Open carry either..but im also not against it. its just not anything I will ever exercise because of the way I think about perceptions of others and what they do for or against 2nd amendment rights/laws or changes that get made to them. I think open carry does nothing to HELP them and a lot to HURT them.

    Lets face it Open carry is not "educating" anyone and for the general public it more scares or makes people want to stay away from the person open carrying even if they are acting "normal"..so when they think about people carrying guns they think about the guy open carrying and how it "bugged" them when if the same guy were CC they would never have known..but anyways...its just opinion by 1 guy...I have had instructors that were so hellbent on 1 particular brand of pistol being the best that they would pretty much project onto you that if you didnt own said brand you better get it or how your brand would not work if SHTF...we all know thats BS but the instructor keeps preaching it to this day...
    So YOU have never practiced OC so YOU have NO practical experience and everything in your post is therefore unsubstantiated person opinion from a position of ignorance; much like the majority of the Lame Stream Media. (Sorry my bad)

    I have OCed and personally experienced peoples reaction to it; everything from a pharmacist who had a druggie try to get narcotics at knife point the day before, when he saw my sidearm said “I sure wish you were in here yesterday” to the manager at Lowe’s who said “I like it when you guys come in carrying; it keeps the bad guys guessing” to numerous people who felt comfortable enough to approach me and inquire what they had to do to buy a gun, get their carry permit, “Can I carry a gun like that?” to a woman in her 70s whose husband had recently passed away and wanted my recommendation on what gun she should buy and a referral to some place she could learn to shoot, etc.

    I was in a stop-n-rob that was my usual after work stop talking to the night manager when 4 “gangsta” types came in and immediately split up and wondered around the store, stopping behind displays looking at us, like they were waiting for me to leave. When it became obvious I had no intention of going anywhere, they left without buying anything. Did I stop a robbery? I really don’t know but if so they didn’t “take me out first” and I got my after work soft drinks for free from then on so the manager thought so.

    I honestly cannot think of a single incident of anyone acting “scared”. I have had one cop approach me and ask if I knew the hammer of my 1911 style pistol had “the hammer cocked back”. It was what I call a “cop bump”, asking a minor question to gauge my reaction to see if I warranted further investigation, we ended up having a pleasant conversation.

  7. #36
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    F350, I am glad you are having positive expereiances with your OC. I think that is awesome. I have noticed a trend however in postings made by OC advocates alloting to their perception that their OC is deterring 3rd party crime. This is oneof my concerns. Does the mentality change for advocates of OC that their weapon is now carried to stop all crime ? Does the idea change from personal protection to deterring crime wherever I am present? If you read the post, this seems to be the outlook of most OCer's and I Think that can lead to putting onesself into a fight they don't have a dog in.

  8. #37
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    To the OP... Think back to when you were in NM. Did you get shot for OC'ing? Did you ever hear of anyone else getting shot or jammed up in any way because of OC'ing? No. Trust your own brain, think about what you have experienced & make your own judgment.

    Vegas Rick... That OC event you found was later proven false. It never happened & the "victim was later charged with making a false police report.

    Glockman... I am MANY others would really like to see some of these bad things that have happened to OC'ers. We keep hearing that it is going to happen but it NEVER gets into the press. As for your fear of OC'ers because of the resent episode in Wal-Mart where the person shot the sign. What about all the stupid ND's committed every year by POLICE on and off duty? Should we take guns away from police until we are sure they can be taught how to safely handle them?
    I know it will be inconvenient but could you please look up the details of " case material on what I have seen happen in 22 years" It would go a LONG way to advance your stand & that of a lot of police.

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    F350, I am glad you are having positive expereiances with your OC. I think that is awesome. I have noticed a trend however in postings made by OC advocates alloting to their perception that their OC is deterring 3rd party crime. This is oneof my concerns. Does the mentality change for advocates of OC that their weapon is now carried to stop all crime ? Does the idea change from personal protection to deterring crime wherever I am present? If you read the post, this seems to be the outlook of most OCer's and I Think that can lead to putting onesself into a fight they don't have a dog in.
    Your fear is just as well place on CC'ers too. Just because the firearm is not visible does not mean the person may not get involved in a situation better left to LEO's. I'm not convinced that exposing the weapon makes it more likely for someone to get involved where they should not. Yes the deterrent effect is used by some. I think that it is possible it exists, but it is just as hard to prove as the "shoot first" idea. Personally, I can CC or OC for personal defense. I choose to OC when I can as a statement that normal folks bear arms to defend themselves. I'm tired of gun owners being looked down upon and decided to do something. It's not that bad around here now, but I'm not going to wait for it to get bad before I choose to do something.

    Personally, I'm not looking to involve myself in someone else's situation unless I have seen the entire thing develop. NC has some odd laws involving 3rd party defense. But if simply displaying the firearm helps then so be it.

    For example, I was walking into an auto parts store a while back while OC'ing. They were discussing a robbery that happened somewhere, possibly that store. One of the employees commented that those "blue shirts" are never around when you need one. The guy with him commented something like "You mean like that guy there?" Now I would have quickly corrected them if they had asked, since I am not a LEO. But I also did not want to butt into a private conversation. I did go out of my way to point out my line of work. So, OC seemed to make that guy feel better. It may also make others, with bad intentions, nervous enough to move on their way. I have seen that happen too.

    Also, you will find idiots with guns who both OC and CC. The OC'ers get attention just for the gun showing. The CC'ers tend to not get attention till they pull the gun and do something dumb. Trying to legislate intelligence gets in the way of everyones freedom.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

  10. #39
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoWeBePart1 View Post
    When I took the course required for concealed carry I brought up open carry to the NRA certified instructor and he thought it was just a terrible idea and nobody should open carry.
    Opinions vary.

    It's not very popular, in many places around the country. In some spots, the reaction is downright evil ... by citizens as well as law enforcement, even though it's perfectly, utterly legal.

    As for the concern about being identifiable as the "armed" person, well, it's true. Police have uniforms, so they're easier to spot. There are examples of police and "security" type folks being targeted in crimes, to eliminate the resistance and the threat. It's an age-old tactic when attacking the enemy, generally speaking. You target the threat. Hell, common sense indicates doing that, let alone fancy tactics. Though there don't yet appear to be any reported instances of OC folks being similarly targeted, I think it's only a matter of time. But that's just a wild guess, as is the guess that it'll never happen. Who's to say.


    ... but when I lived in New Mexico I used to open carry often as did others and nobody ever paid much attention.
    Yes, it varies by location. Some people have really bad mental blocks about the whole concept. Others seem to realize that actions speak louder than words, and unless a person is actually threatening others with a drawn firearm then there is little to worry about.


    I was a bit surprised that someone with his background and someone who is an NRA recruiter as well would not support open carry ...
    OC certainly helps educate open minds. It helps people to understand that "gun" <> "evil".


    Has anyone else ever run into a NRA instructor that does not agree with open carry?
    Haven't yet, no.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  11. #40
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Ask him if it's RKBA or RKBCA...I'm just sayin'...
    Exactly

  12. #41
    Ex Member Array F350's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    F350, I am glad you are having positive expereiances with your OC. I think that is awesome. I have noticed a trend however in postings made by OC advocates alloting to their perception that their OC is deterring 3rd party crime. This is oneof my concerns. Does the mentality change for advocates of OC that their weapon is now carried to stop all crime ? Does the idea change from personal protection to deterring crime wherever I am present? If you read the post, this seems to be the outlook of most OCer's and I Think that can lead to putting onesself into a fight they don't have a dog in.
    OC......CC makes no matter, the night manager had become a bit of a buddy after stopping in every night after work. I was working at a gun shop/range and closed up at 9:00 PM and we would chat a couple minutes each night, we had some things in common. It would be a hell of a buddy to walk out on a guy in a potentially dangerous situation "Hey you're about to get robbed and maybe murdered, good luck with that, maybe if you're still alive I'll see ya tomorrow". I just ain't built that way, and having spent 8-9 years as a reserve deputy sheriff riding on patrol with a regular deputy friend as much as 5 nights a week has a little to do with it too.

    I know having a sidearm doesn't make me Deputy Dog out saving the world; it doesn't mean I have to cut and run either.

  13. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    So YOU have never practiced OC so YOU have NO practical experience and everything in your post is therefore unsubstantiated person opinion from a position of ignorance; much like the majority of the Lame Stream Media. (Sorry my bad)

    I have OCed and personally experienced peoples reaction to it; everything from a pharmacist who had a druggie try to get narcotics at knife point the day before, when he saw my sidearm said “I sure wish you were in here yesterday” to the manager at Lowe’s who said “I like it when you guys come in carrying; it keeps the bad guys guessing” to numerous people who felt comfortable enough to approach me and inquire what they had to do to buy a gun, get their carry permit, “Can I carry a gun like that?” to a woman in her 70s whose husband had recently passed away and wanted my recommendation on what gun she should buy and a referral to some place she could learn to shoot, etc.

    I was in a stop-n-rob that was my usual after work stop talking to the night manager when 4 “gangsta” types came in and immediately split up and wondered around the store, stopping behind displays looking at us, like they were waiting for me to leave. When it became obvious I had no intention of going anywhere, they left without buying anything. Did I stop a robbery? I really don’t know but if so they didn’t “take me out first” and I got my after work soft drinks for free from then on so the manager thought so.

    I honestly cannot think of a single incident of anyone acting “scared”. I have had one cop approach me and ask if I knew the hammer of my 1911 style pistol had “the hammer cocked back”. It was what I call a “cop bump”, asking a minor question to gauge my reaction to see if I warranted further investigation, we ended up having a pleasant conversation.
    Thank you well said. An informed knowledgeable post based upon real world experience. Not an unfounded fantasy based upon ignorance. It is a constant source of irritation for me to wade through all the assumptions based upon contempt prior to investigation, complete lack of knowledge and experience.
    Seems folks would want to take advantage of the vast knowledge base here listen and learn from those that have real world experience. Rather than announce to the world the depths of their ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    OC......CC makes no matter,.................It would be a hell of a buddy to walk out on a guy in a potentially dangerous situation "Hey you're about to get robbed and maybe murdered, good luck with that, maybe if you're still alive I'll see ya tomorrow". I just ain't built that way, and having spent 8-9 years as a reserve deputy sheriff riding on patrol with a regular deputy friend as much as 5 nights a week has a little to do with it too.

    I know having a sidearm doesn't make me Deputy Dog out saving the world; it doesn't mean I have to cut and run either.
    I'd take that one step further gun or no gun. There was a time when it was commonly accepted that cowardice was not a virtue. That we are each not the center of the universe. Seems people have become so selfish, self centered that they have forgotten that there are things far more important than ourselves. That we have responsibilities, obligations to our fellow citizens and human beings.
    We often hear and talk about our rights. Just as our Freedom is not free, so to does citizenship and our rights have duties, responsibilities and obligations attached.

    Quote Originally Posted by F350 View Post
    I know having a sidearm doesn't make me Deputy Dog out saving the world; it doesn't mean I have to cut and run either.
    This too is also right on the money
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  14. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    I can give you several examples of open carry working against people,
    On another thread so as not to hijack this one I for one would like to see evidence of that involving civilians. Not just I heard or he said she said but real verifiable evidence form credible sources that can be substantiated. For months a thread ran where no one could find one single verifiable instance of OC being used against a civilian
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  15. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by LongRider View Post
    On another thread so as not to hijack this one I for one would like to see evidence of that involving civilians. Not just I heard or he said she said but real verifiable evidence form credible sources that can be substantiated. For months a thread ran where no one could find one single verifiable instance of OC being used against a civilian
    I, for one, won't accept "one single verifiable instance." Heck, the plural of "anecdote" isn't "evidence." So why would one one single verifiable anecdote be evidence.

    OTHO, for a verifiable instance that goes the other direction, how-about a customer using an OCed replica 1875 Remington Army .45 Long Colt with a 7 1/2 inch barrel to stop a criminal who had shot the store's unarmed owner, first.

    Two shot in South Richmond store | Richmond Times-Dispatch

    Richmond Times-Dispatch
    Two shot in South Richmond store
    By Reed Williams

    Published: July 12, 2009

    A gunman who had wounded a shopkeeper and opened fire on several
    customers was stopped yesterday when another man shot him at the store
    in South Richmond, authorities said.

    The violent attempted robbery took place shortly after 1 p.m. at the
    Golden Food Market at 2701 Jefferson Davis Highway, the same store
    where another man was shot last month -- and only three blocks from
    the scene of another robbery in June that left a shopkeeper dead.

    Owners of as many as a dozen Jefferson Davis-area businesses flocked
    to the scene of the shooting, and many were rattled by such a brazen
    daylight attack, said Councilwoman Reva Trammell, whose 8th District
    includes the Jefferson Davis corridor.

    Trammell, who arrived outside the store shortly after yesterday's
    shootings, described a frenzied scene. One man told Trammell that the
    man who had shot the robber was a guardian angel.

    "Whoever did it probably saved their lives in there," Trammell said of
    the shooter.

    Police did not identify anyone involved in yesterday's shootings.

    The man who shot the robber is a friend of the store owner, and he was
    wearing a holster with a Western-style revolver, said Managing Deputy
    Commonwealth's Attorney Tracy Thorne-Begland.

    After the suspect shot the store owner and opened fire on patrons, the
    owner's friend shot the suspect once in the torso, took his gun and
    called police, Thorne-Begland said.

    Thorne-Begland said it appeared that the shooting of the suspect was
    justified, although he emphasized that the investigation was in the
    early stages.

    Police said they expect to file charges against the suspect.

    The store owner's injuries did not appear life-threatening,
    authorities said, but the gunman's injuries were said to be life-
    threatening. No one else was hurt.

    Anthony Gregory, who lives near Golden Food, said he was in the store
    about 15 minutes before the shootings, and that while he was there, he
    saw a man with a baby making a purchase.

    Gregory said the owner told the baby, "Welcome to the world. This is a
    dangerous world, so be careful. But don't worry, God will protect you."

    Police Cmdr. Steve Drew said officers had been patrolling up and down
    Jefferson Davis yesterday and recently have bolstered their presence
    in the area. He said it was unusual for a commercial robbery to happen
    so early in the day.

    The previous shooting at Golden Food took place late the night of June
    12. And three nights earlier, a co-owner of the Come and Go Food
    Market, which is about three blocks north of Golden Food on Jefferson
    Davis, was shot and killed in a robbery.

    Authorities said it was too early to know whether any of the three
    shootings on Jefferson Davis are connected.

    A few hours after yesterday's shootings, Said "Sam" Messaf, the man
    who was shot June 12 at Golden Food, was at the store to help another
    man shut down the market.

    Messaf described how he had been helping out at the store June 12 when
    two robbers came inside. One man opened fire, reaching over the
    counter and shooting as Messaf cowered behind it, he said. Messaf was
    shot six times in his legs.

    He said he suffered nerve damage in his left leg and has trouble
    sleeping.

    Trammell said residents and business owners were scared by the recent
    violence but have faith that police are doing their best to stop it.

    "I'm still shook up," Trammell said. "I'm not afraid, but we've worked
    so hard on Jefferson Davis -- so hard in that area to bring crime down."
    Last edited by DaveH; April 16th, 2010 at 10:31 PM.
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  16. #45
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    One time a man was involved in a non-lethal self defense shooting. He always OCed. Even though he was eventually cleared criminally, was known as the man who carried a gun, which was used by the man who was shot in the civil suit that followed, which cost him everything he had. Another was a third party defense of an OCer who used his weapon in defense of a woman being battered by her ex. Because he had been seen by other people on the prosecutions witness side as always carrying a gun, he was made to look like someone looking for trouble, which cost him alot of headache. I could go on, but I am not inclined to defend my experience or knowledge. Do what you will, I'm finished here. Best of luck.

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