Ultimatum From the Rabbi

This is a discussion on Ultimatum From the Rabbi within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Jason Storm Our current state's laws on carrying guns in religious places stinks at best and needs to be reformed. Unfortunately, it ...

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Thread: Ultimatum From the Rabbi

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Storm View Post
    Our current state's laws on carrying guns in religious places stinks at best and needs to be reformed. Unfortunately, it is not allowed without his permission. I am afraid if he does insist, you will have to go by it. Otherwise it is a violation of state law and he can get you nailed for it. It be best you either leave your gun in the car or go to a different synanogue whose Rabbi tolerates open carry.

    Nothing in the law says anything about permission from the church leader. It says "without good or sufficent reason"...

    From VSP: http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp...0+cod+18.2-283
    18.2-283. Carrying dangerous weapon to place of religious worship.

    If any person carry any gun, pistol, bowie knife, dagger or other dangerous weapon, without good and sufficient reason, to a place of worship while a meeting for religious purposes is being held at such place he shall be guilty of a Class 4 misdemeanor.
    Last edited by SIGguy229; May 24th, 2010 at 01:51 PM.
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  3. #32
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoJoGunn View Post
    Not to show disrespect to any faith, but I would almost be willing to bet the people of the Islamic faith often carry firearms into the Mosque for protection.

    seen that

  4. #33
    Distinguished Member Array GunGeezer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thumper View Post
    Better tell your Rabbi not to go to Israel then!
    An old college friend of mine, a retired OBGYN has a daughter who lives in Israel. He goes to visit her nearly every year. He tells me he stands out like a sore thumb because he is the only one not carrying a gun. I would tell the Rabbi to remember the words, "never again" and if he doesn't choose to protect the safety of himself and his family, that's his choice, not yours. There are many Biblical presidents for protecting oneself regardless of religious persuasion.
    I would love for somebody to explain to me why so many Jews are liberal democrats.

  5. #34
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    I will say that after what happened in the 1930's, how anyone, of any faith, could not take responsibility for their own protection is beyond my comprehension. I didn't live through the 1930's or 1940's but my parents did.
    Ditto...

    I can understand the concerns regarding open carry in the firearms phobic society we live in today, although the only way to counter the phobia is to face it head on, but I would hope your agreement to CC will satisfy.
    Martial Blade Concepts, Jiu-Jitsu & Eskrima NRA, GOA, NYSRPA, LIF, Old Bethpage Rifle & Pistol Club

  6. #35
    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    I would think a synagogue is even more likely to be attacked these days than a church. Not only should you carry, but people in the congregation should be encouraged to, and you should be thinking about a formal security plan. Maybe you do a search on synagogue attacks and provide him with some details. It probably won't work because he isn't operating from logic, but maybe you can get grudging acceptance.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

  7. #36
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    Although I don't agree with your rabbi in his thinking, I will say that is his choice.

    In your situation, I would explain that while you respect his position as a leader in your faith, you do not adhere to his views on self defense. You might also tell him, that while you enjoy his and his wifes company on a social basis, that you will do what is required for yours and your families safety.
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  8. #37
    Member Array MN2Go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnK87 View Post
    I would think a synagogue is even more likely to be attacked these days than a church. Not only should you carry, but people in the congregation should be encouraged to, and you should be thinking about a formal security plan.
    John, every synagogue in the world has a security plan provided by the state of Israel. Every (bigger) shul - beit k'nesset - I know has armed guards during the services.

    The issue of being anti-gun by the (older Jews) and self-defense by every means - ein brera - by the people of Israel is very confusing. Even in Israel half the country is anti-gun.



    Some 25 % of the youngster decline to serve in Zahal. It used to be different.

    Those who tell that everybody is carrying is Israel have not been there. Eretz Israel has one of the most strict gun laws. Getting carry permit is more hassle in Tel Aviv than it's in D.C.

    The guns you see "civilians" carrying (M16s etc) are usually the part of the outposts, new communities that need to take care of their on security with little help from the IDF.



    Naturally, every soldier caries his/her weapon all the time, on leave or service.

    If our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right. -- Cicero

  9. #38
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    If he wants to be a pacifist victim, fine. But I've made my decision to protect my life and to carry the tools with which to do so.
    Because of the words he spoke to the other guy, he's apparently willing to deny that your life and the lives of your loved ones has value. He's willing to take from you the sole, effective means of defense you have because of his lack of comfort with the concept of the value of life. Ultimately, it's not about guns. Rather, it's about the value of life. He doesn't place the value on yours that you thought he might. His loss need not be yours.

    Your response is appropriate. He can do what he chooses about it.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
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  10. #39
    Member Array rolltide13's Avatar
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    kinda off topic, but arent those slings a little long in those pictures? i know my ar sits a lot higher on my body...

    (sorry if i hijack OP)

  11. #40
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    I can't help but think that if each of the Jews that were taken away by the Nazis (including 27 of my wife's relatives) would have had a gun and killed one Nazi each there would not have been six million Jewish people murdered.
    Steven
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  12. #41
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    Carrying at services is something the Rabbi doesn't have ultimate say in; he's an employee of the congregation, although he would hold great sway over the board of directors. Both the president and the financial secretary (me) conceal carry to services. The treasurer is pro-gun; used to have a carry permit but allowed it to expire and sometimes comes to the range with us. Virginia law says it is illegal to carry a firearm to a house of worship during a meeting for religious purposes without good reason. A neo-nazi cell located 15 miles from our synagogue and who knows what kind of jihadist attack at any time is good and just reason in my book.

    I'm hoping he's worried enough about my reaction that he'll procrastinate on talking to me, July 1 will come, and I'll be able to conceal carry around him. He'll never see the gun again, and forget about it.
    The good reason clause can be downright confusing. So do they mean I gotta go to a church in an unsafe neighborhood/high crime then? Still, they need to reform this law and allow us to carry it w/o some vague clause. I still would refuse to go to attend a church service in a high risk area just to exercise my right to carry.

  13. #42
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    Good grief, where'd this idea come from

    Quote Originally Posted by MN2Go View Post
    John, every synagogue in the world has a security plan provided by the state of Israel.
    Good grief. Where'd this idea come from. I hope you didn't mean it as literally as it sounds.

    The way you wrote that makes it sound as if somehow Israel provides security for US synagogues. Ridiculous. Just like everyone else who has a sizable congregation (that is, large Protestant churches), these security things get handled locally--- not by some international deal.

    MN2GO, I think most of your post was well meant but this opening comment was perhaps ill thought out?

    Also-- "every in the world" is a pretty big number.

  14. #43
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    John, every synagogue in the world has a security plan provided by the state of Israel.
    Good grief. Where'd this idea come from. I hope you didn't mean it as literally as it sounds.

    The way you wrote that makes it sound as if somehow Israel provides security for US synagogues. Ridiculous.
    That's not what was written. He wrote that the plan is provided, not the actual security itself. The heads of the organizations should know the source, though it's uncertain whether anyone else knows.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #44
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    re: ccw9mm The Plan????

    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    That's not what was written. He wrote that the plan is provided, not the actual security itself. The heads of the organizations should know the source, though it's uncertain whether anyone else knows.
    Sorry for the topic drift. I'll make one comment and anyone who wants to deal further on the topic, let's go to private message.

    Not even, "The Plan."

    Now let's get back to topic.

    Sorry all. A sensitive nerve got touched.

  16. #45
    Member Array MN2Go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Good grief. Where'd this idea come from. I hope you didn't mean it as literally as it sounds.

    MN2GO, I think most of your post was well meant but this opening comment was perhaps ill thought out?

    Also-- "every in the world" is a pretty big number.
    I mean every, and I stand by my comment - security plan. Read it as you wish.

    I'm certain those in the know either shoot my claim down or ...

    If that sounds ridiculous to you, there is nothing I can do.
    If our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right. -- Cicero

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