Ultimatum From the Rabbi - Page 4

Ultimatum From the Rabbi

This is a discussion on Ultimatum From the Rabbi within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I never get over how little American Jews learned from WWII. The holocaust started only AFTER the people were disarmed. But then, as a whole, ...

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  1. #46
    Senior Member Array Lewis128's Avatar
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    I never get over how little American Jews learned from WWII.
    The holocaust started only AFTER the people were disarmed.
    But then, as a whole, they seem to identify the most with the very same liberal groups who bash Israel.
    Genesis 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you."


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array edr9x23super's Avatar
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    1. Being comfortable is not a right, and certainly isn't covered by the US and VA Constitutions.

    2. I hate to say it so bluntly, but 6 million Jews were not very comfortable being put to their deaths.

    3. Warsaw ghetto, a handful of Jews with few weapons holds off the German army for what, a month? What if they all had been armed?
    All of the above, plus tell your Rabbi this:

    NEVER AGAIN

    If that doesn't get his attention, nothing will....
    "Guard with jealous attention the public liberty. Suspect everyone who approaches that jewel. Unfortunately, nothing will preserve it but downright force. Whenever you give up that force, you are inevitably ruined". - Patrick Henry

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    He's willing to take from you the sole, effective means of defense you have because of his lack of comfort with the concept of the value of life.
    if its your sole means you are in trouble

  4. #49
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MN2Go View Post

    Some 25 % of the youngster decline to serve in Zahal. It used to be different.

    so what not wanting to be in the millitary is equal to being anti gun? i dont want to be in the millitary does that mean i am anti gun?

  5. #50
    Member Array MN2Go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexHassin View Post
    so what not wanting to be in the millitary is equal to being anti gun? i dont want to be in the millitary does that mean i am anti gun?
    Nope, just that things change, Alex Hassin. Might explain the whole anti-gun phenomenon of Jewish people's experience.

    ADL To Supreme Court: States Should Regulate Firearms

    Jews, Abe Foxman and gun control

    Israel does not have that luxury, but explaining that would be waste of time.

    It is now estimated that the refuseniks - 50 percent of young men and 56 percent of young women avoid military service for one reason or another, and this number is increasing. According to a recent military report, the number of women failing to enlist has increased from about one third 20 years ago to 44 percent last year ... It would be the equivalent of 50,000 US soldiers refusing to serve in Afghanistan

    So, are you anti-gun? Your "analogy," not mine.
    If our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.” -- Cicero

  6. #51
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AlexHassin View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    He's willing to take from you the sole, effective means of defense you have because of his lack of comfort with the concept of the value of life. .
    if its your sole means you are in trouble
    You're assuming something I didn't mean, and which I didn't think I implied. I apparently wasn't clear.

    Sure, generally speaking, if a person has only one means of defense at all, and a person seeks to rely on only one to cover all scenarios (as you thought I suggested), then the person isn't likely to survive the variety of attacks that could arise. Such a person should be lamented his/her lack of creativity and choices in designing a defense against attack.

    The point was, many (most) folks are likely to have one primary means that is fairly effective against the firearm. Reality is, with an attacker having a firearm and staying out of contact distance, not much else is going to be effective other than a firearm. That's all.

    In short: Not much other than a firearm is likely to be effective against a firearm-wielding attacker from 10ft away. A bolt of lightning perhaps, but then those don't come around on command and are thus not really an option. Vary the scenario, though, then yes other tools will work and should be part of a person's defensive options.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #52
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    I don’t disagree that Israel has changed, for better or for worse, and perhaps it is part of the same phenomenon but I would not draw any connection that not wanting to serve in the military is the same as being anti gun. There are plenty of people in the military hear in the US that are anti gun.

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    In short: Not much other than a firearm is likely to be effective against a firearm-wielding attacker from 10ft away.
    The same could apply to most other weapons as well. I'm not trained to deal with an attack with a knife, bat, pipe, etc. If an attacker comes at me with any deadly weapon, my brain and my firearm are my only line of defense.

    I carry a folder, but I am not trained in knife fighting. I am also not physically capable of prolonged melee combat with other weapons. I can hold my own against most unarmed opponents, but adding a weapon of any kind creates a disparity of force.

    Hopefully, my clumsy words communicated my thoughts sufficiently.

  9. #54
    Distinguished Member Array kazzaerexys's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    Well, the Rabbi hasn't approached me yet. When he does, I'll point out that on July 1 a new law takes effect and I will be able to keep the gun concealed so he won't have to see it, but that him asking me not to carry is simply out of bounds. If he wants to be a pacifist victim, fine. But I've made my decision to protect my life and to carry the tools with which to do so.
    You need to hop on over to Gun Owners' Alliance and have a look at the archived writings of Rabbi Reuven Mermelstein:

    * GunOwnersAlliance.com - Ask the Rabbi is BACK! By Rabbi R. Mermelstein

    Plenty there, but the most relevant thing is in this article:

    * GunOwnersAlliance.com - Ask the Rabbi: A Biblical Model of Self-Defense

    It is a Talmudic argument that self-defense is not only allowed but is required.
    CommonMan101 likes this.
    “What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia

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  10. #55
    Member Array glock45's Avatar
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    Take the Rabbi to the range...

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jason Storm View Post
    Our current state's laws on carrying guns in religious places stinks at best and needs to be reformed. Unfortunately, it is not allowed without his permission. I am afraid if he does insist, you will have to go by it. Otherwise it is a violation of state law and he can get you nailed for it. It be best you either leave your gun in the car or go to a different synanogue whose Rabbi tolerates open carry.
    Jason,
    The law doesnt say that you need the Pastor/Rabbi's permission to carry in a place of worship. It says that you need good and sufficient reason. Isn't your safety and the safety of others, good and sufficient reason? And Jofrdo Rabbi isnt objecting to anything that happens in the Synagouge, he is objecting to him open carrying while out to dinner and such places like that. IMHO the law adequately covers your ability to carry while at services and should be left alone.
    Alex G.
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  12. #57
    Member Array glock45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gaowlpoop View Post
    I can't help but think that if each of the Jews that were taken away by the Nazis (including 27 of my wife's relatives) would have had a gun and killed one Nazi each there would not have been six million Jewish people murdered.
    I have always wondered about the same thing. If every Jew had had a gun, the results would have been completely different.

    I learn from history and I refuse to be a victim or let my family become victims. My wife and I both have a loaded gun always within reach.
    G21SF, G30, G36, Ruger SP101 DAO, S&W 642

  13. #58
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    re: glock45

    Quote Originally Posted by glock45 View Post
    I have always wondered about the same thing. If every Jew had had a gun, the results would have been completely different.

    I learn from history and I refuse to be a victim or let my family become victims. My wife and I both have a loaded gun always within reach.
    We get comments like this one here all the time, and frankly they are very naive, and show little understanding of the power that a dictator using a totally hostile population has when they are working in concert toward a destructive end.

    One of the things being completely missed is the basic fact that the enmity toward Jews spanned the whole of European society, and was not limited (with a few minor exceptions) to Germany. The hatred spanned from Moscow (even though they were enemies of Germany) to France. It was rampant in Poland. It spanned from Sicily to Norway. There were pockets of civility here and there (notably the King of Denmark), but centuries of hate filled propaganda finally brought on a sad reality.

  14. #59
    Member Array MN2Go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post

    One of the things being completely missed is the basic fact that the enmity toward Jews spanned the whole of European society, and was not limited (with a few minor exceptions) to Germany. The hatred spanned from Moscow (even though they were enemies of Germany) to France. It was rampant in Poland. It spanned from Sicily to Norway. There were pockets of civility here and there (notably the King of Denmark), but centuries of hate filled propaganda finally brought on a sad reality.
    You one of those believing anti-Semitism is in the DNA of Europeans? Swedes and Finns would be real surprised, especial the latter who fought as German ally against the Soviets, but refused any attempt to hand over a single Finn of Jewish faith. The number of Danish Jews who perished is a well-known fact. Quite a few Jews were members of the Mussolini's fascist party. Norwegians weren't selling out the Jews either. The Dutch ...

    I suggest you educate yourself prior to condemning a whole continent. How many hundreds of years Jews lived in perfect harmony in Poland?

    A ligner hert zich zeineh ligen azoi lang ein biz er glaibt zich alain.
    If our lives are endangered by plots or violence or armed robbers or enemies, any and every method of protecting ourselves is morally right.” -- Cicero

  15. #60
    Senior Member Array jofrdo's Avatar
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    Update: My wife and I went out with the Rabbi and others on Wednesday. I open carried, but arrived first and was already seated when the others arrived, and lingered at the table to be able to leave after them, so nobody saw my Kahr.

    Responses to posts:
    Someone suggested taking the Rabbi to the range; I assure you that will not happen.

    I don't know what the poster meant by "every synagogue in the world has a security plan provided by Israel" but I know mine doesn't. Each synagogue is pretty much on its own, owned by the congregation, and nobody in Israel is paying any attention. The Rabbi is typically a contracted employee of the individual synagogue, not of some larger movement or religious body. Maybe something metaphysical was being implied, but I don't subscribe to that either. Sometimes the local Jewish Federation will distribute an email warning of some increased threat level, but we’re on our own to formulate our response to such a warning. The larger congregations might hire more off duty police officers. I make sure I take my .40 cal Glock instead of my 9 mm Kahr.

    About a year ago, I spoke to the Assistant Commonwealth's Attorney in the city where my synagogue is located. I asked her how the "good and sufficient reason" clause is enforced and/or prosecuted, since I am aware that some churches have armed security on Sunday mornings; aren't they violating the law? She wiggled around giving an actual answer (lawyers!) but suggested that for a security team to stay on the good side of the law, they would probably need to document that they drill together and meet to discuss and develop reaction plans to various security scenarios and probably have the endorsement of the church's leadership.

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