Ultimatum From the Rabbi

This is a discussion on Ultimatum From the Rabbi within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; What about individuals who carry?...and the church doesn't have a non-mandated (by the state) security team? Sometimes when lawyers talk...they make parallel lines cross....because you ...

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  1. #61
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    What about individuals who carry?...and the church doesn't have a non-mandated (by the state) security team?

    Sometimes when lawyers talk...they make parallel lines cross....because you can't get a straight answer from them....
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

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  3. #62
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    re: MN2GO -- I think our discussion belong on p.m.

    Quote Originally Posted by MN2Go View Post
    You one of those believing anti-Semitism is in the DNA of Europeans? Swedes and Finns would be real surprised, especial the latter who fought as German ally against the Soviets, but refused any attempt to hand over a single Finn of Jewish faith. The number of Danish Jews who perished is a well-known fact. Quite a few Jews were members of the Mussolini's fascist party. Norwegians weren't selling out the Jews either. The Dutch ...

    I suggest you educate yourself prior to condemning a whole continent. How many hundreds of years Jews lived in perfect harmony in Poland?

    A ligner hert zich zeineh ligen azoi lang ein biz er glaibt zich alain.

    I think any further discussion of this belong in private message or private e-mail.

  4. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    I think any further discussion of this belong in private message or private e-mail.
    I would agree, half of the posts in the thread are off-topic..

    Back on topic, has the President said anything yet?

  5. #64
    Senior Member Array jofrdo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    What about individuals who carry?...and the church doesn't have a non-mandated (by the state) security team?

    Sometimes when lawyers talk...they make parallel lines cross....because you can't get a straight answer from them....
    When I spoke with the Commonwealth's Attorney, she would not be pinned down into a black & white definition of "good and sufficient reason" for carry in a house of worship during a meeting for religious purposes. An armed individual or a team of such, acting with the knowledge of the congregation's leadership and/or clergy, and who train and plan, would probably be found to have firearms with good and sufficient reason and be above prosecution under that law. An individual acting alone, even if with good intentions, risks prosecution if he's made.

    My take on it is keep it well concealed because, if that individual is the guy that stops some neo-nazi-skinhead who enters a synangogue with the intent of killing Jews, he'll be seen as the hero, not prosecuted for illegal carry in a house of worship.

    There have some efforts in Virginia to change the law. I think there was a bill last session to allow concealed carry if the service leader approved. I wasn't too happy with that, because my service leader (the Rabbi) would not approve. It shouldn't fall on him, as an employee of the congregation, to be making policy decisions for us and I hope future versions of the bill recognize boards of directors, deacons, etc. in addition to the clergy as being in the policy making loop.

  6. #65
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    I just wish the entire law was silent on carry in a place of worship...not add another law to be "interpreted"...
    CommonMan101 likes this.
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  7. #66
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    re: jofrdo

    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    It shouldn't fall on him, as an employee of the congregation, to be making policy decisions for us
    Really though, that is the key issue, he is an employee of The Board.

    Your Board should be making non-religious policy decisions with lots of input and respect for the rabbi's opinion, but since this cc stuff is not specifically a religious issue, (we aren't talking about how to light Sabbath candles for example, or whether you can bring in Chinese food for the Oneg Shabat :- ), it really is up to the Board to set policy.

    Work on persuading the other Board members till you get a majority vote.

    If you can not persuade the other board members to your point of view, your choice is to conceal anyway, find another place, or insist that armed security be hired.

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horsetrader View Post
    I'm sure you are familiar with this website: Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership - Homepage
    Boy thats right where I was headed

    Jews for the Preservation of Firearms Ownership - Homepage

    I find it unconscionable that he does not remember the rounding up of Jews into the concentration camps, unable to defend themselves.
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  9. #68
    VIP Member Array Majorlk's Avatar
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    Jofrdo:

    This is nothing more than curiosity on my part, but how old is your Rabbi?
    An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life. - Robert A. Heinlein

  10. #69
    Senior Member Array jofrdo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oneshot View Post
    I find it unconscionable that he does not remember the rounding up of Jews into the concentration camps, unable to defend themselves.
    Of course he remembers what happened during the Holocaust! He, like most American Jews, believe it could never happen here. Here's where their heads are at. The leader of the Reform Jewish movement, Eric Yoffie, said:

    "First and foremost, we need to see the control of guns not as a political problem but as a solemn religious obligation. Our gun-flooded society has turned weapons into idols, and the worship of idols must be recognized for what it is blasphemy. The only appropriate response to idolatry is sustained moral outrage."
    -Rabbi Eric Yoffie, URJ Biennial Sermon
    December 18, 1999 / 9 Tevet 5760

    We in the gun rights culture tend to think of guns as tools, and although we appreciate the craftsmanship of a fine gun, wood grips and tooled leather holsters, none of us would agree with Rabbi Yoffie that our guns have become idols.

    The Reform Movement's full position paper can be found at Religious Action Center - Gun Control
    It pretty much embraces the entire left wing political agenda.

  11. #70
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    re:jofrdo private message coming

    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    Of course he remembers what happened during the Holocaust! He, like most American Jews, believe it could never happen here. Here's where their heads are at. The leader of the Reform Jewish movement, Eric Yoffie, said:

    "First and foremost, we need to see the control of guns not as a political problem but as a solemn religious obligation. Our gun-flooded society has turned weapons into idols, and the worship of idols must be recognized for what it is blasphemy. The only appropriate response to idolatry is sustained moral outrage."
    -Rabbi Eric Yoffie, URJ Biennial Sermon
    December 18, 1999 / 9 Tevet 5760

    We in the gun rights culture tend to think of guns as tools, and although we appreciate the craftsmanship of a fine gun, wood grips and tooled leather holsters, none of us would agree with Rabbi Yoffie that our guns have become idols.

    The Reform Movement's full position paper can be found at Religious Action Center - Gun Control
    It pretty much embraces the entire left wing political agenda.

    Private message coming.

  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    Of course he remembers what happened during the Holocaust! He, like most American Jews, believe it could never happen here. Here's where their heads are at. The leader of the Reform Jewish movement, Eric Yoffie, said:

    "First and foremost, we need to see the control of guns not as a political problem but as a solemn religious obligation. Our gun-flooded society has turned weapons into idols, and the worship of idols must be recognized for what it is blasphemy. The only appropriate response to idolatry is sustained moral outrage."
    -Rabbi Eric Yoffie, URJ Biennial Sermon
    December 18, 1999 / 9 Tevet 5760

    We in the gun rights culture tend to think of guns as tools, and although we appreciate the craftsmanship of a fine gun, wood grips and tooled leather holsters, none of us would agree with Rabbi Yoffie that our guns have become idols.

    The Reform Movement's full position paper can be found at Religious Action Center - Gun Control
    It pretty much embraces the entire left wing political agenda.
    Unfortunately, you are not alone. Much of mainstream Christian tradition comes down the same place. While there are some exceptions, they tend to be the groups that are looked down on as ignorant, racist, redneck (feel free to fill in appropriate pejorative), etc.

    I am a member of one of those denominations. The crazy thing is, I can't believe how many pastors I know who carry or at least have their CWFL here in FL--in spite of official denominational stances and their more liberal theology. Funny world we live in.

    Shalom to all y'all.
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  13. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    I've been carrying regularly for 4-1/2 years, mostly concealed, but have to open carry in restaurants that serve alcohol. My wife and I are Jewish and many, but not all, of our Jewish friends are far left liberals. I'm a financial officer in our congregation and wear several hats on various committees; I've made myself kind of indispensible as has she. We go out once or twice a week with the Rabbi and his wife, including many Friday nights after sabbath services. The president of the congregation also carries and attends these dinners with his wife, open carrying of course.

    The pres. told me today that about two weeks ago, the Rabbi called him in the middle of the day and wanted to talk and even drove to the president's office to meet with him. It was pretty much along the lines of "my wife and I are very uncomfortable being around you and jofrdo when you two have guns with you. We value your friendship but..." So the president promised to stop carrying around the Rabbi, but also pointed out that when he talks to me, I will have much stronger feelings about it.

    Well, the Rabbi hasn't approached me yet. When he does, I'll point out that on July 1 a new law takes effect and I will be able to keep the gun concealed so he won't have to see it, but that him asking me not to carry is simply out of bounds. If he wants to be a pacifist victim, fine. But I've made my decision to protect my life and to carry the tools with which to do so.
    Come to my shul, my wife and I are orthodox and our Rabbi is hardcore conservative.

  14. #73
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    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by jofrdo View Post
    ....
    The Reform Movement's full position paper can be found at Religious Action Center - Gun Control
    It pretty much embraces the entire left wing political agenda.
    The so-called statistics from the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence and Handgun Control, Inc. have been shown to be seriously cooked.

    And that

    Legislative Summary
    Common sense gun control legislation has not passed since 1994....
    is word-for-word from the brady bunch .

    My condolences my friend.
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  15. #74
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    Sounds like Reform. With liberal religion you usually get liberal politics. No offense to you at all, but you sort of set yourself up for that one.

    I'd try taking tennvol's invitation. I did once similarly and never looked back.

  16. #75
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    Tell him to quit being a schmuck.

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