Myth buster

This is a discussion on Myth buster within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; While you may think you know criminal behaviors , always remember criminals are unpredictable at times. Just because it makes sense to do something to ...

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  1. #31
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    While you may think you know criminal behaviors , always remember criminals are unpredictable at times. Just because it makes sense to do something to you does mean they will.
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  3. #32
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    If open carry puts you at such a disadvantage, why don't all cops conceal carrry?

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryteon View Post
    If open carry puts you at such a disadvantage, why don't all cops conceal carrry?
    1: Because they're cops and everyone knows they're armed anyway?

    2: As they are more likely to need their sidearm, it makes sense to be able to reach it immediately.

    3: The duty belt needed to carry everything else would be a little hard to hide, you think an IWB is uncomfortable, try sticking a radio in your drawers.

    4: Are you serious?

  5. #34
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    1: Because they're cops and everyone knows they're armed anyway?

    Then you purposefully put yourself at a disadvantageby open carrying? You're logic doesn't stand the test of critical thinking. You can still conceal carry your firearm. In fact, following your logic, you'd be better off concealing it since you come in contact with BG's far more frequently are more likley to have your weapon taken from you. If more people open carried then "everyone knows they're armed anyway" also.

    2: As they are more likely to need their sidearm, it makes sense to be able to reach it immediately.

    If a civilian needs their sidearm, they have the same need you have to reach it immediately.

    3: The duty belt needed to carry everything else would be a little hard to hide, you think an IWB is uncomfortable, try sticking a radio in your drawers.

    You can carry a duty belt and still conceal your firearm. And I've tried sticking a radio in my drawers. I didn't enjoy it, but some people might. :)

    4: Are you serious?

    Yes, I am serious. Unless a cop can guarantee I will never be a victim, then there's no reason I shouldn't have the same advantage he has.
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  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rotorblade View Post
    In the crappy areas of Los Angeles there have been cases where a gang banger will call 911 to get a police car rolling to a certain area so they can shoot it up when it arrives. I don't think most modern day BGs (not talking about a purse snatcher), would think twice about killing someone just to take his weapon and size doesn't matter when the BG is armed.
    I think that we established well that walking alone into a bad area of L.A. with a sidearm is a bad idea and is disrespectful to the neighborhood.

    IMHO, their "hood" is a micro-environment where they have the support and bravery to pull of such stunts. Outside of this environment, the support system is not there for them.. This is why they don't call 911, have a car sent to a good part of town and ambush it.
    "There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet an enemy." GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter to Elbridge Gerry, Jan. 29, 1780

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  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryteon View Post

    Then you purposefully put yourself at a disadvantageby open carrying? You're logic doesn't stand the test of critical thinking. You can still conceal carry your firearm. In fact, following your logic, you'd be better off concealing it since you come in contact with BG's far more frequently are more likley to have your weapon taken from you. If more people open carried then "everyone knows they're armed anyway" also.


    If a civilian needs their sidearm, they have the same need you have to reach it immediately.
    For starters, I'm not a cop, so there is not "Same need I have"

    And yes, open carrying can put yourself at a disadvantage given a specific set of circumstances which is why that most LE Agencies mandate the use of retention holsters. LE Open carries out of necessity and ease of use given the required load of equipment they need to fulfill their duties. For them it just makes more sense.

    Officers are relived of their sidearms quite often, there was one officer in CT that was quite literally sacked and relived of his entire duty belt. If you feel it is advantageous to open carry that's fine. It's all part of our own personal risk assessment to figure out which works for ourselves. But there's at least one guy in WI that thinks differently about the possibility of being targeted for open carrying a handgun.

    Would uniformed officers benefit from concealed carry? No. Do under cover officers, hell yes. Even plain clothes officers that are not UC still carry concealed a majority of the time. They carry in the manner that best fits their roles. I do the same. I open carry when it makes more sense than carrying concealed, and I conceal when it makes more sense than carrying openly. You won't see me open carrying in 30below weather as that would require the absence of my winter coat and you probably wouldn't see me trying to conceal in 100+ heat if open carry was available as an option.

    As for "If a civilian needs their sidearm, they have the same need you have to reach it immediately." I don't see where anyone is disputing that. What's your point and how does it relate to this thread?

  8. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by kootsoup
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    In Reality gangstas thrive on street cred,If some guy said I saw a guy carrying a gun and robbed him of his gun and money,or shot him and took his gun,they would be really bad ass in their buddys eyes
    This statement is silly.. even "gangstas" are not that stupid.. and if said jacka$$ did manage to pull off such a stunt, their buddies would tell them how stupid they are. You have to remember they are people too..

    As an OC'ier with a double retention holster and awareness of my surroundings, any such attempt would be a disaster for everyone involved.. most likely ending with shots fired.

    Even desperate criminals have a basic sense to avoid potentially HOT situations.
    Actually its not that silly. Some "gangstas" and non-gangstas do this crap on a regular basis (do things for show and brag about it, make street status symbol). They try to "one-up" the other guy for status within their gang/hood and in competition with other gangs. Especially if they are with other fellow gang members, in view of rival gang members, or--most of time even worse--in front of their women.

    We see this quite regularly with and within the rivaling biker gangs, the black vs hispanic, black vs asian, hispanic vs asian, white vs black.....etc etc etc gangs. Just like they try to out-do the others in marking out graffiti and putting on their own, they try to constantly looker bigger, "badder", and more bold than their rivals. This isn't me just rattling off words and my opinion. Its based on my LE experience, training, and gang awareness studies including Mexican drug cartels, bloods/crips and all their sub-associations, and biker gangs.

    Now granted, not all turds of society are in gangs and they don't all act the same, but what dukalmighty was saying does happen, not every time stealing someone's gun, but the mindset and actions do occur. We've had guys here fight the cops and it elevated them within their circle of dirtbag thug friends according to what we've been told by informants and some of their associates.
    There is a reason why cops carry retention holsters. There is a reason why you yourself carry one. Thugs are unpredictable. I've seen people on alcohol/meth/crack/marijuana (and combinations of any of the above) do some things that a normal person wouldn't think about doing. We've had some try to get guns away from cops. If they are that brazen and bold they would dang sure try it from someone not in uniform if the situation was right.
    That being said, a turd lookin for a quick score in the walmart parking lot will most likely not target you carrying a visible gun on your hip vs the mom with purse on her shoulder with 2 kids in tow. Does that mean it won't ever happen? no, some turd with a buddy might look at that and think we'll take his wallet and his gun, its 2 on 1

    Kootsoup, I'm not discounting what you saw, heard, experienced with the turds you grew up with/around. You have learned things from your perspective. Don't discount criminals in other areas of the country, other aspects of criminality, gangs, etc. Some will tell their fellow turds how dumb they are to attempt to attack someone that is armed, others will look at it as a bigger trophy.

    I agree with you....criminals are people, and they come in every shape, size, level of competence and skill, and level of ruthlessness.
    They all use logic as you say, and we all know their logic is idiotic, hateful, and criminal. However, I think you are limiting the scope of your outlook on what these thugs will or can do.

    And yeah....those of us in LE know these tools make fun of us, talk trash about us, etc etc etc. We deal with them every day. We get info from informants on their behaviors, likes/dislikes, how they brag about their actions, and try to be more impressive than the other tools. I've had my life threatened, been told by the tools I was dealing with that they will catch me and my family when I don't have my badge and gun (which by the way NEVER happens lol), etc. There is a reason that while I'm at work my wife sleeps with a Glock 26 on the nightstand and an AR-15 and Mossberg 500 within the bedroom. I do the same when I'm at home. We've had turds confront officers off-duty with their family at the mall, walmart, and even one time at their house.

    Kootsoup....kudos to you for getting out of your situation alive and non-criminal. Kudos to you for exercising your right to self-defense.
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  9. #38
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    Kootsoup I think you are missing one element of the bad guy equation. hopped up on drugs means there is almost no rational thought. Also people have to deal with (certainly cops do) more than just street thugs. There are people out there that are crazy or went off the deep end and just want inflict as much pain as they think they are feeling. I have run into all these sorts, and none of em cared that I was carrying a gun in plain view, I doubt any of them even noticed.

    Its bad form to ASSUME that you know how criminals are going to act, its very dangerous.
    "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kryteon View Post
    Yes, I am serious. Unless a cop can guarantee I will never be a victim, then there's no reason I shouldn't have the same advantage he has.
    It is the cop's role to confront criminals on a daily basis, many who are armed. Concealed carry would be rather pointless, given the fact that you arrive on the scene in a fully marked police vehicle, wearing a distinct uniform, and are expected to be armed by society. Do you really not understand the role of the police officer vs. the needs and considerations of the armed citizen?

    And as already pointed out, many undercover officers DO conceal carry. It all depends on the situation and needs of the officer. And in my area, nearly ALL off-duty officers conceal carry. There's enough drama in an 8 hour shift, without inviting attention to yourself when you are off duty.
    Slow is smooth.....smooth is fast.

  11. #40
    New Member Array Kryteon's Avatar
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    "It is the cop's role to confront criminals on a daily basis, many who are armed. Concealed carry would be rather pointless, given the fact that you arrive on the scene in a fully marked police vehicle, wearing a distinct uniform, and are expected to be armed by society. Do you really not understand the role of the police officer vs. the needs and considerations of the armed citizen?"

    I fail to see what the role of a police officer vs the needs and considerations of an armed citizen have to do with the advantages/disadvantages of open carry. There is an advantage to open carry. Having your weapon at the ready instead of digging it out of your pants is an advantage. Thats why cops do it. Thats why I do it.

    Granted, there are times and places for concealed carry. I do that too. But the advantages of open carry outweigh the percieved disadvantages. I'm sure we can all come up with some hypothetical, or anectdotal, scenareo where one method of carry has an advantage over another, but it general terms, they don't pass the common sense test.

  12. #41
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    Do you really not understand the role of the police officer vs. the needs and considerations of the armed citizen?
    This is one of those lines that makes people in most of the gun forums feel the way they do. LE is a tough job and not many people are willing to do what you do on a daily basis. But this comment could be construed as demeaning my role in society and everyone else that carry's for that matter. I understand what you are saying myself and do not take offense to it, but someone just coming in a reading this might take it out of context that you are saying you are above and better then an armed citizen. Just an FYI on how somethings come out when you don't mean it that way.

    One issue I want to bring up since there are so many LEO's in this forum is, why are most LEO's against OC. You say in some respects it is a tactical advantage for you to have access to your side arm faster, but I also see me having it in OC is also safer for you because you can see it and adjust to me having it rather then being surprised when I tell you its CC. Does it not not seem more realistic for you to be more concerned about the guns you cant see verses the gun you know for a fact is on me. I have never seen this question asked and that surprises me. I think the truthful answer to this would clear up a lot of the questions most open carriers have. So to put it simple, for you LEO's out there why are you concerned more with what you can see on me and not what you cant. This is not a bash question just one that needs to be asked if its for your safety explain why so everyone understands.

  13. #42
    Senior Member Array Vaquero 45's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajcampbell20 View Post
    This is one of those lines that makes people in most of the gun forums feel the way they do. LE is a tough job and not many people are willing to do what you do on a daily basis. But this comment could be construed as demeaning my role in society and everyone else that carry's for that matter. I understand what you are saying myself and do not take offense to it, but someone just coming in a reading this might take it out of context that you are saying you are above and better then an armed citizen. Just an FYI on how somethings come out when you don't mean it that way.

    One issue I want to bring up since there are so many LEO's in this forum is, why are most LEO's against OC. You say in some respects it is a tactical advantage for you to have access to your side arm faster, but I also see me having it in OC is also safer for you because you can see it and adjust to me having it rather then being surprised when I tell you its CC. Does it not not seem more realistic for you to be more concerned about the guns you cant see verses the gun you know for a fact is on me. I have never seen this question asked and that surprises me. I think the truthful answer to this would clear up a lot of the questions most open carriers have. So to put it simple, for you LEO's out there why are you concerned more with what you can see on me and not what you cant. This is not a bash question just one that needs to be asked if its for your safety explain why so everyone understands.
    By saying "role," I meant that a police officer is expected to be openly armed, due to his role, or job, in society. This differs from the role of the armed citizen, which is primarily to defend oneself, loved ones and possibly third parties (depending on state law) in the event of criminal attack. Any reasonable person should understand that police and armed citizens have different considerations regarding why they are armed.

    I didn't say anything demeaning towards armed citizens. It would be obscene and an affront to the freedom that we all enjoy if the carrying of arms was banned. I will argue with someone who makes the absurd claim that he can predict criminal behavior without fail, and is thus safe from being a victim because he is armed.

    I don't have a problem with OC'ers. I do have a problem with drama queens who strap on their pistols and go LOOKING for trouble, as I'm sure quite a few do. I've said it before, and I'll say it again....there are many OC'ers who have carried for years and not had a single negative "encounter." And they there are those who are constantly being "victimized," the the point they wear multiple tape recorders on them. Any marriage counselor will tell you.....after 5 divorces, you've gotta wonder if maybe it's YOU, and not the 5 ex-spouses.

    Someone who "reads into" what I'm saying is going to come to any conclusion they want anyway, so I'm not responsible if they project their inadequacies on me and get butt-hurt. I suggest a self-esteem workshop.

    Slow is smooth.....smooth is fast.

  14. #43
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    Notice in the explanation of this forum:

    Open Carry Issues & Discussions - Discussion regarding open carry in those States where it is legal to do so. This is not a place to debate the virtues of open vs concealed carry.

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  15. #44
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    This is not a place to debate the virtues of open vs concealed carry
    Sorry I was trying to discuss open carry in my state.

    As for the reply to my post, like I said i understand what you mean, but others might not especially if they are new. I just wish more people felt comfortable with OC. Its comments like that get people started on OEO verses LEO. In my eyes officer bashing is a bad thing considering what they give up for us every day. I see that a lot on forums about how OC's are treated and Clarification on LE positions, and the reasons for how they act is the only thing that will make it better.

  16. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by ajcampbell20 View Post
    Sorry I was trying to discuss open carry in my state.

    As for the reply to my post, like I said i understand what you mean, but others might not especially if they are new. I just wish more people felt comfortable with OC. Its comments like that get people started on OEO verses LEO. In my eyes officer bashing is a bad thing considering what they give up for us every day. I see that a lot on forums about how OC's are treated and Clarification on LE positions, and the reasons for how they act is the only thing that will make it better.
    No problem with the OP, however it is drifting is toward OC vs CC and I was just posting a reminder to all.
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