To brandish or not to brandish? - Page 2

To brandish or not to brandish?

This is a discussion on To brandish or not to brandish? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Janq, I agree with what you're saying... But dictionary definitions are NOT legal definitions... And Legal defiinitions vary from state to state... As evinced by ...

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Thread: To brandish or not to brandish?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Janq,

    I agree with what you're saying... But dictionary definitions are NOT legal definitions... And Legal defiinitions vary from state to state... As evinced by the list of definitions in state codes before the actual code itself.

    In Iowa, as an example... our permits are currently classified as professional or nonprofessional... I have an "Iowa nonprofessional permit to carry weapons"

    In Iowa a "weapon" (as applied to carry) is further defined as a dangerous weapon:
    Dangerous weapons - devices designed
    primarily for use in inflicting death or injury
    including, but not limited to, offensive
    weapons, pistols, revolvers, other firearms,
    daggers, razors, stilettos, switchblade
    knives, or any knife with a blade exceeding
    five inches.
    No one (but LEO or others specifically permitted) may have offensive weapons:
    Offensive weapons - machine guns, short
    barreled rifles (less than 16 in length) and
    shotguns (barrels less than 18 in length or
    overall length less than 26), other weapons
    which fire a projectile and have a barrel
    6/10th of an inch or greater in diameter,
    bombs, grenades, firearm silencers, mines,
    poison gas, rockets with more than four
    ounces of propellant, ballistic knives,
    exploding shells and similar items.
    Now, as far as the word "weapon" is concerned, even our permit instructor had to correct himself several times when he used the word weapon and changed it to firearm. Weapon was common usage for firearm for decades.

    You are absolutely correct, anything can be weaponized.

    I think this is something we are going to have to consciously correct ourselves on.

    This is my rifle/this is my gun... This is a clip/this is a mag... This is a pistol/this is a revolver...

    Of course, for the press, all of the above are AK47s or their accoutrement.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    oakchas,

    Read all that I'd stated,in my subsequent posting.

    My very first sentence;
    "Instructors teaching CCW courses (whihc always are specific to a given state and it's laws) could and should be doing a better job of explaining what this means to students. "
    Source - http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...098-post9.html

    Of course legal definitions vary from state to state....And it is paramount that people understand and know this as well as the facts of life & living toward possession and carry within a given state and even locality.

    Beyond knowing a given states legal view as definition, knowing the word use definition (i.e. Merriam-Webster) is equally important as used by JD to help folk understand the functional concept of the act to 'brandish'...As within that of a given states statute/law as practiced.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  3. #18
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    Regarding Pittsburgh.

    I never see anybody doing open carry in Pittsburgh.

    That having been said it is legal.

    The problem with PGH carry is that there is a local law that Pittsburgh Police must investigate & respond to all "Man With A Gun" calls.

    And...you are probably already aware of how MWAG calls usually get responded to.

    The PGH Police are honestly in a Catch 22 type of situation.

    So...if you are legally open carrying and some sheep-like citizen has a spazz atack at the mere sight of your firearm and then punches 911 on you - you can expect sirens and to get delayed for a while after a MWAG encounter.

    And then you can go on your merry way.

    I am not offering up pro or con on Open Carry in Pittsburgh & I am only making a statement of fact that at this particular point in time...Carrying OPEN is an incredibly rare thing for the City Of Pittsburgh City Proper.

  4. #19
    Member Array jrperri24's Avatar
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    thanks ccw, oak, and qk for the insight.

    qk- your description is pretty much what I have heard as well... Like I said, I'd rather carry totally concealed in a more populated urban environment, but I always wonder what would really happen. Don't know if the possible repercussions are worth finding out. SuperTuck Deluxe you live to holster another day!
    "I have seen haste be folly, but I have never seen delay victorious."
    - Sun Tzu, The Art of War

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array DoctorBob's Avatar
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    The Sunshine state

    Florida is pretty reasonable. You can even carry billy clubs, stun guns, knives and brass nuckles with a CWP. It has the Castle Doctrine and a 'no retreat' clause written into it's CW law.

    BUT, it also considers showing a gun - loaded or not - as "deadly force." You can only use deadly force to respond to a credible threat of deadly force.

    "the amount of force you use to defend yourself must not be excessive "

    Q. Are there special laws that apply to the use of Handguns?

    A. Yes, special laws apply anytime anyone uses deadly force, whether or not the weapon is concealed. Florida law defines deadly force as force that is likely to cause death or great bodily harm. When you carry a handgun, you possess a weapon of deadly force. The law considers even an unloaded gun to be a deadly weapon when it is pointed at someone.

    Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?

    A. Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:
    Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
    Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.
    Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.

    Summary

    1. Never display a handgun to gain "leverage" in an argument, even if it isn't loaded or you never intend to use it.

    2. The amount of force that you use to defend yourself must not be excessive under the circumstances.

    Never use deadly force in self-defense unless you are afraid that if you don't, you will be killed or seriously injured;
    Verbal threats never justify your use of deadly force;
    If you think someone has a weapon and will use it unless you kill him, be sure you are right and are not overreacting to the situation.
    3. The law permits you to carry a concealed weapon for self-defense. Carrying a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman or a "good samaritan."

    Check out
    Lawful Self-Defense - Weapons - Division of Licensing, FDACS

    All this means that you might very well find yourself in court for showing your gun, drawing your gun, or firing your gun in a defensive encounter where a jury will decide if your behavior was reasonable and prudent.

  6. #21
    Member Array mrjam2jab's Avatar
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    I tried to read everything...but didnt really see it.

    To the OP...in PA there is no such law as brandishing....

  7. #22
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Go to the Open Carry Pennsylvania forum HERE for more info.

    Also there is a state firearms activism group with a forum, PAFOA.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  8. #23
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    I have Concealed Carry for 40 years in Pa and don't think I would OC until they pass a Castle Doctrine. I have always felt it would be too easy to be pushed into an unwanted confrontation. If you and another guy are the only ones present and he threatens to beat your ass and take the gun away from you, you are in avery, very bad position. If you shoot him its murder, if you dont , he might just shoot you.

    Conceal it and be a lot safer.
    Peace is that brief, glorious moment in history, when everybody stands around reloading.

  9. #24
    JD
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    OK guys, let the staff hash it out if it's an issue. If you think it's not allowed to be posted, USE THE REPORT POST ICON.

    The above post is not an issue. There's no debate going on here and the OP is asking "to do or not to do" you can't have a balanced discussion with only one view point.

    It's only a debate if the members make it one. Voicing negative concerns about open carry does not a debate make.

  10. #25
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    Waving threateningly aside, if you were in an argument with someone and you opened your vest and "showed" them your concealed firearm, then that can be used as "brandishing" as it was done in a threatening manner or to warn of possible intent to use.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  11. #26
    VIP Member Array CLASS3NH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    I "brandished" a pair of speedos once
    Why Waltz when you can Rock-N-Roll

  12. #27
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    Ohio is an open carry state, but I have never seen anyone actually do it. I am a fairly new CCW permit holder and I have no plans to OC. I was surprised to see the reaction of folks, who I have known for years, when I told them I got my permit. Many folks seem to be under the belief that any gun is a bad gun...even if they have known that person carrying it for over 15 years! LOL!!

    OC seems, to me, to potentially invite a multitude of headaches you can avert by doing a CC instead. CCW holders are held to a higher level of responsibility because you are made aware of the laws...however absurd they seem...criminals...not so much!

    After taking the class, I was surprised to find out everything I HAD to do prior to shooting...and even then, you are not immune to legal action from the person you shot (if they didn't die) or their family suing you in Civil Court for lost wages and the like...let me get this straight, you were going to kill me but I got the drop on you...and now you are suing me??!! ***!!??

    I was talking with my brother in law about the brandishing question the other night, we both agreed we would never present the weapon in hopes to scare (which could backfire if you aren't really ready to shoot) but in order to make sure we were giving last chance to someone who hadn't yet invaded the personal space...and allowing us the legal need to "announce our intention to leave the situation" prior to a shoot...if persistence occurs then its your personal decision to use the gun or not.

    Bottom line for me, the less people who know you are CCW the better...be smart, be aware and whenever possible, let the police do their job and the heavy lifting!
    All the gold & the guns in the world couldn't get you off! (Metric)

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bbqcentral View Post
    Ohio is an open carry state, but I have never seen anyone actually do it. I am a fairly new CCW permit holder and I have no plans to OC. I was surprised to see the reaction of folks, who I have known for years, when I told them I got my permit. Many folks seem to be under the belief that any gun is a bad gun...even if they have known that person carrying it for over 15 years! LOL!!

    OC seems, to me, to potentially invite a multitude of headaches you can avert by doing a CC instead. CCW holders are held to a higher level of responsibility because you are made aware of the laws...however absurd they seem...criminals...not so much!

    After taking the class, I was surprised to find out everything I HAD to do prior to shooting...and even then, you are not immune to legal action from the person you shot (if they didn't die) or their family suing you in Civil Court for lost wages and the like...let me get this straight, you were going to kill me but I got the drop on you...and now you are suing me??!! ***!!??

    I was talking with my brother in law about the brandishing question the other night, we both agreed we would never present the weapon in hopes to scare (which could backfire if you aren't really ready to shoot) but in order to make sure we were giving last chance to someone who hadn't yet invaded the personal space...and allowing us the legal need to "announce our intention to leave the situation" prior to a shoot...if persistence occurs then its your personal decision to use the gun or not.

    Bottom line for me, the less people who know you are CCW the better...be smart, be aware and whenever possible, let the police do their job and the heavy lifting!

    Respectfully disagree.....visit Virginia...no one goes screaming into the night because someone OCs. Recommend you check out OpenCarry.org - A Right Unexercised is a Right Lost! ...

    When police and the public are educated on what the laws say vs what they think they say, it's not a problem. I've OC'd for 8 years, never been asked to leave but have been asked "Can anyone carry like that?". A little education goes a long way.
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoctorBob View Post
    Florida is pretty reasonable.
    Unless I am mistaken Florida only recently started permits concealed carry and still bans open carry. As it is one of the only states in the union that prohibits Open Carry, when the vast majority of states do not even require a permit to Open Carry. I would say Florida is still a pretty un-reasonable, anti 2A state. Alot more progress needs to be made before I would consider its approach to 2A reasonable. Vermont, Alaska and Arizona have reasonable gun laws
    Abort the Obamanation not the Constitution

    Those who would, deny, require permit, license, certification, or authorization for me to bear arms are as vile, dangerous & evil as those who would molest, abuse, assault, rape or murder my family

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Spirit51's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jrperri24 View Post
    haha touche!

    I'll be sure to be more specific in the future.
    "Brandishing a weapon in Missouri is usually comes a charge of "assault with a deadly weapon".

    I don't show my weapon unless the next step would be ...AIM....FIRE.

    So I guess what you call Brandishing...I call READY.

    You really should be more careful of what terms you use....a slip of the tongue like that could get you jail time in some places.
    A woman must not depend on protection by men. A woman must learn to protect herself.
    Susan B. Anthony
    A armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one has to back it up with his life.
    Robert Heinlein

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