Baaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh - Page 2

Baaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh

This is a discussion on Baaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ItsMyRight2 I would be worried if I saw an 18-19 year old carrying. Some but not all states allow OC at this ...

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  1. #16
    Member Array crf3973's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ItsMyRight2 View Post
    I would be worried if I saw an 18-19 year old carrying.
    Some but not all states allow OC at this age. What age do you think should be the minimum?


  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    While there is little doubt that you would like this to be true, it is not so. An 18 year old is still a teenager. If you survey the various state laws in force around the country, you'll see that what rights and responsibilities and liabilities accrue to young people vary by location. Up until federal highway funding forced the issue, even the drinking age was highly variable. There are still variations for tobacco, age of consent, etc.

    So you aren't talking about "becoming an adult" here, you are merely noting some changes in how the law applies to you. Do be aware that the tired-out phrase, "old enough to go to war and die for my country" is a hoary old cliche and non-suasive of anything. For general purposes, we can say that 21 is the age of matriculation into adult society, and most people develop full autonomous responsibility and adequate judgement in their 20s. Kohlberg, Piaget, and Erikson - pioneers of developmental psychology - all posit moral awareness as solidifying around this time.

    That's important because sound moral judgement is a key aspect to the safe carrying of firearms in the public sphere. Since there's no test we can apply to discriminate between the 18 year olds who can be trusted and those who are still immature, I would prefer that the age of 21 be the standard for OC and CCW.

    IF, You Still live in FL. Then 21 is the age for CC, Except for owning a handgun & carring in his/her veical ; )
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    While there is little doubt that you would like this to be true, it is not so. An 18 year old is still a teenager. If you survey the various state laws in force around the country, you'll see that what rights and responsibilities and liabilities accrue to young people vary by location. Up until federal highway funding forced the issue, even the drinking age was highly variable. There are still variations for tobacco, age of consent, etc.

    So you aren't talking about "becoming an adult" here, you are merely noting some changes in how the law applies to you. Do be aware that the tired-out phrase, "old enough to go to war and die for my country" is a hoary old cliche and non-suasive of anything. For general purposes, we can say that 21 is the age of matriculation into adult society, and most people develop full autonomous responsibility and adequate judgement in their 20s. Kohlberg, Piaget, and Erikson - pioneers of developmental psychology - all posit moral awareness as solidifying around this time.

    That's important because sound moral judgement is a key aspect to the safe carrying of firearms in the public sphere. Since there's no test we can apply to discriminate between the 18 year olds who can be trusted and those who are still immature, I would prefer that the age of 21 be the standard for OC and CCW.
    +1 We made an horrific mistake when we lowered the age of majority from 21 to 18. Of course, I thought it was a great idea when I was younger.

    Nowadays, having observed the growth and development of my own son, and having had years of experience observing many others, especially college aged kids, I have no doubt whatsoever that 18 is an inadequate marker of adulthood. And of course we all know that. That is why, as shockwave has pointed out, we don't allow a wide array of things to be done until the age of 21.

    The 14th amendment set a voting age at 21. The 26th re-set it at 18 as a result of the unpopularity of drafting young people unable to have a say in the political decisions of war and peace. This of course had nothing to do with any determination of when the brain actually reaches some semblance of
    reasonable maturity in most instances.

    With regard to the op's status, I'd suggest that the thread title chosen by the OP, "Baaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh," indicates a present lack of maturity.

  4. #19
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    When my oldest daughter was 16 we let her drive from Ft Mead Md to just north of Harrisburg PA to go to a prom.

    Some neighbors come over to complain. I misunderstood -- thinking that they were concern about chaperoning, or the lack there of.

    I took a deep breath. Swallowed my rage at them butting into family business. Decided that for my daughter's reputation sake I should relieve their concerns about the morality of the situation.

    So, I started to explain my daughter would be staying with a family we had know for years and the families visit each other. That she was going to the dance with a boy she had known (been good friends with) all her life, [and I mean all of her lifetime, as their mothers shared the same maternity room -- back in the days before the birthing suites]. Again, our families had become close over the years and that I knew & trusted the boy from more that some of the local boys.

    When I got to it would be no different from them going to a local HS dance, one of the "ladies" interrupted me.

    "That's not the point. You are letting her drive... through Baltimore....across....through.... Now my daughter...."

    At which point I said, "Hold on. I'm not going to let your opinion of your daughter's maturity, responsibility, trustworthiness, driving ability, etc." determine what my daughter can and cannot do." I turned around and walked back into the house. Shut the door in their face. Some of those "ladies" never spoke to me again.

    In personal situations treat individuals as individuals -- age, gender, ethnic origin not withstanding.

    As for government, I had Marines (whose parents signed for them) under 18. I had a cousin under 18 die on North Atlantic convoy escort early in WWII.

    At age 70, I might be tempted to make an argument that the adequate marker adulthood is 35. But I won't, because it would be wrong, IMHO.

    I don't know if there is a "magic" age cut-off.

    But I do know that the is all over the place and IMHO that is wrong.

    Why should the maturity to drive a x000 lb vehicle down the Interstate, be different from being tried in a Court of Law as an adult [fourteen years of age or older at the time of an alleged offense is charged with an offense which would be a felony if committed by an adult], be different from voting, be different from owning or carrying a handgun, be different from serving in the armed forces, be different from entering into a contract, be different from getting married, be different from continued health insurance coverage on parents' policy, be different from delivering or serving alcohol, be different for the protection against being required to give testimony as a witness if a minister, be different from who can may bring action or persons against whom actions may be brought and damages recoverable from, be different from who can serve process, capias or show cause order; execute writ of possession and levy upon property, be different from who can receive service of any action at law or in equity or any other civil proceeding in any court, be different from being liable to serve as jurors, etc, etc.

    Here in Virginia we have:

    1-204. Age of majority.

    For the purposes of all laws of the Commonwealth including common law, case law, and the acts of the General Assembly, unless an exception is specifically provided in this Code, a person shall be an adult, shall be of full age, and shall reach the age of majority when he becomes 18 years of age.
    But exceptions specifically provided in this Code are all over the place. True most of them are 14, 16, 18, 21, or 25. But what is mature enough for [fill-in-the-blank] is too all over the place, IMHO.
    Last edited by DaveH; July 24th, 2010 at 07:22 PM. Reason: syntax & spelling
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  5. #20
    Member Array Chunkychuck's Avatar
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    I'll throw another kink in here. Which other of the Bill of Rights have age limits? None that I can think of. Some have been restricted by case law just like the 2nd. If we truly want to exercise all of the Bill of Rights unfettered, then we have to be willing to accept the unfortunate possibilities that can occur if we really want to be free. I'm 58

  6. #21
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    Kinda going off topic from OP subject.

    18, 19, and 20 year olds should be permitted to defend themselves. Their lives are no less valuable than 21+ year olds. The majority of us carry to defend ourselves and/or our family/friends, which would likely be the same reason a 18, 19, or 20 year old would. Because if they are going to illegally carry for illegal purposes, it won't matter whether they could purchase a permit or not. (as nearly all of them wouldn't if they had ill-intent of carrying) So why punish the many for the few? (denying all ability to purchase a permit just because some 19 year olds are committing crimes) 18 is definitely the cut-off age though. Most 18-21 move out and go to college or get on with their lives becoming independent. The majority of those under 18 are still with their immediate family the majority of the time (debateable; less and less the older they get).

    Many state and local law enforcement agencies allow 18 and 19 year olds to join, yet you don't ever read articles about how an immature 19 year old LEO got killed.

    Definitely a valid point that some 18 year olds are more mature than some 40 year olds. However, the average 40 year old is more mature than the average 18 year old. There are always exceptions to the rule. But an immature 19 year old girl being raped should have the right to defend herself, no?

    Just my thoughts..

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post

    Here in Virginia we have:

    1-204. Age of majority.

    For the purposes of all laws of the Commonwealth including common law, case law, and the acts of the General Assembly, unless an exception is specifically provided in this Code, a person shall be an adult, shall be of full age, and shall reach the age of majority when he becomes 18 years of age.


    But exceptions specifically provided in this Code are all over the place. True most of them are 14, 16, 18, 21, or 25. But what is mature enough for [fill-in-the-blank] is too all over the place, IMHO.
    Fill in the blank -OK.

    How would you feel about an 18 year old as the next Governor of your state?

    The minimum age to become president of the United States is 35. Is that too old? Should it be changed to 18?

    Should it be 21 for either of the above?
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  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    This morning, I did a 35-min. run around the neighborhood and someone walking did not even notice that I was running past her. She was surprised the last min. I ran past her. It's amazing how the sheeple are unaware of their surroundings. Imagine if I was the purse snatcher, she'd be done.

  9. #24
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    Once again, I am amazed at the double standards being exhibited.

    Most agree it is shameful that a state would still have a law allowing the local sheriff discretion over who should be allowed to carry a gun.

    On this particular forum, most get irate if someone who does not OC criticizes the choice of others.

    Yet, those same people seem to feel that their own particular prejudice about what age someone else should be allowed to carry is perfectly reasonable...
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

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  10. #25
    Member Array Chunkychuck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    Fill in the blank -OK.

    How would you feel about an 18 year old as the next Governor of your state?

    The minimum age to become president of the United States is 35. Is that too old? Should it be changed to 18?

    Should it be 21 for either of the above?
    It is the constitution that specifies the minimum age for the president. The Bill of Rights, which the last time I looked is a part of the constitution, does not specify an age for any of its provisions.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaxMentis View Post
    Once again, I am amazed at the double standards being exhibited.

    ....

    Yet, those same people seem to feel that their own particular prejudice about what age someone else should be allowed to carry is perfectly reasonable...
    + 1

    On even to handle a gun or being taken to a range.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunkychuck View Post
    It is the constitution that specifies the minimum age for the president. The Bill of Rights, which the last time I looked is a part of the constitution, does not specify an age for any of its provisions.
    + 1

    And there a court cases that 1A, 4A, 5A, 6A, 7A, & 8A are not limited to "adults."
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  12. #27
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    Although it's essentually illegal to OC here in FL, If it were legal, it would not alarm me to see someone OC because BGs hide their pieces. Otherwise, you'd see them coming. (Especially all those who think they have BG-detecting Spidersenses.) I don't jump and yell for the police if I see some guy with a Glock in a pancake holster. It's probably some detective.
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  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chunkychuck View Post
    It is the constitution that specifies the minimum age for the president. The Bill of Rights, which the last time I looked is a part of the constitution, does not specify an age for any of its provisions.
    What's your point?
    Constitutional amendments can change the Constitution at the Federal level. At the state level The legislature enacts state statutes. Both are ways to change the law for legal age but that is not the focus of this discussion.

    The discussion is also not about open carry vs. concealed carry. It is about what some here feel the minimum age should be to carry. In many states, the legal minimum age to CC is 21 in others it is 18. DaveH posted a thread seemingly a bit off topic that mentioned the age one must be to do several things besides carry of a handgun. The thread is relevant to the discussion if only to reason why the age to legally do certain things is what it is.
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  14. #29
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    DaveH posted a thread seemingly a bit off topic that mentioned the age one must be to do several things besides carry of a handgun.
    Excuse me???

    From the OP:

    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    ....
    Her brother wants me to take him shooting, but I do have some apprehension in doing so because he is a minor, and I know some minor's are responsible, but I know how I was at 15 and I should not have been around guns at that age.
    ....
    When people are mature enough by law or local custom or neighbors' opinions to do various things is one of the points, IMHO.

    My point was to show how crazy the patchwork quilt of law and local custom is.

    IMHO, that is relevant to the discussion the issue which the OP raised of "old enough" to "take him shooting."

    From there it developed into the question of any age limit on 2A.

    If anything has been lost as we move away from the OP, it was the OP's discussion of SA.
    Last edited by DaveH; July 24th, 2010 at 09:36 PM. Reason: clarification
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    What's your point?
    Constitutional amendments can change the Constitution at the Federal level. At the state level The legislature enacts state statutes. Both are ways to change the law for legal age but that is not the focus of this discussion.

    The discussion is also not about open carry vs. concealed carry. It is about what some here feel the minimum age should be to carry. In many states, the legal minimum age to CC is 21 in others it is 18. DaveH posted a thread seemingly a bit off topic that mentioned the age one must be to do several things besides carry of a handgun. The thread is relevant to the discussion if only to reason why the age to legally do certain things is what it is.
    That is exactly my point. The president's age is set by the constitution. The Bill of Rights does not specify an age at which the people can keep and bear arms. It just says "the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed". I don't recall anywhere where it says you have to be a certain age to be "a people". We can debate forever on maturity levels if there needs to be an age limit based on someones definition of maturity. However, the founding fathers didn't limit it and so we shouldn't either without a constitutional amendment.

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