Baaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh

This is a discussion on Baaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; You should be able to carry at 18. Those who try to claim more and more rights should wait until 21 sound like the same ...

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Thread: Baaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array peckman28's Avatar
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    You should be able to carry at 18. Those who try to claim more and more rights should wait until 21 sound like the same people who have helped make alcoholism worse in this country by raising the drinking age to 21. There is no magic age, and trying to raise it will not make things better. This is the same flawed mentality that helps cause accidents with guns and children. Trying to prohibit people from using them for even longer is wrong. And to the one who thinks the whole old enough to go to war thing is a worthless cliche, enlist at 18, carry a gun around in Iraq and then come back and be told by someone like you that your right to defend yourself in public is invalid because of your age.

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  3. #32
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    just to expand on my point of me feeling like he is not old enough for me to teach and take shooting. It is not just a maturity issue, although it is that as well. It is also a liability issue. With him being a minor, I would want at least a letter of permission from his parents with their signatures on it. If their son chooses to grip my firearm wrong, ignore a safety rule, etc. etc. etc. and gets hurt, the slide laces his hand, gets burned by brass, whatever could happen, it is more liability on me than if I were to take someone over the age of 18. As a correction, 18 is the age of majority most places and in federal government as well. The only thing 21 means is CCW rights in some states and the privilage to drink legally. A signature is legally binding at 18, at 18 in the eyes of the court one is an adult, not to mention the age of voting rights. Btw, the shot at the title of this topic and my maturity level, how many senior members and moderators even have called the unaware sheep and said things such as baaaahhhh as a joke, does that make everyone else that does it immature? lets try to keep things from getting personal and discuss the topic at hand
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array jbum's Avatar
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    I will take a 16 year old Israeli on my side any day.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    just to expand on my point of me feeling like he is not old enough for me to teach and take shooting. It is not just a maturity issue, although it is that as well. It is also a liability issue. With him being a minor,
    ....
    Btw, the shot at the title of this topic and my maturity level, how many senior members and moderators even have called the unaware sheep and said things such as baaaahhhh
    As for the "not old enough for me to teach" I started my kids well before that. However, the point I was making with the story of my daughter driving was that it is "different strokes for different folks" -- both the children's maturity level and the parents' world-view.

    As to the liability issue, how I would react to that would depend on how well I knew the parents and on parents' world-view. Certainly I would take no minor shooting w/o the parent's knowledge.

    IMHO, a better way around written permission to take a minor shooting would be to ask for an "in loco parentis authorization to consent to medical treatment if the minor is injured" statement to cover the drive [which is the greatest danger] as well as the activity.

    As far as the "baaaahhhh" I saw that as simply related to the behavior of the "some girl."

    However, the "some girl" raises a point of taking "some girl" who apparently you didn't know and her minor brother whose parents apparently you didn't know somewhere w/o thinking about "the liability issue" yet worrying about liability, were you to take the same minor shooting.

    Which gets back to may analogy about my daughter driving to PA. Like it or not, even our thoughts are shaped, to some degree, by our "neighbor's" world-view. We'll take a child in a car somewhere and expose him/her to one of the gravest dangers we face w/o written authorization, yet worry about taking the same minor shooting.

    BTW -- this is not in-your face. I've done the same -- albeit not w/o knowing the parents.
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  6. #35
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    just to point out, the girl was 18 and her brother would be considered in her care, and the emphasis on the statement he is not old enough for me to teach is on the ME part, He may be old enough to learn, but I do not feel that I should be the one to teach him
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  7. #36
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    I was turned loose in the woods with a rifle WAY before I was old enough to drive. Not all folks are mature enough at 18, not all of them are mature enough at 40 either. But at some point the freedom of the majority has to override the limits set on the minority. There is some risk to freedom. And that risk is that there is always some idiot who will do something stupid with it. Should that be used to limit it for the rest of us? I don't think so. Nothing annoys me more than a law that's passed to keep someone from doing some rare stupid thing that affects those of us that are more responsible. It's the whole, "if it protects one person" mantra. Sometimes the freedoms that get abridged are really more important than that one person.

    As for taking him shooting. That's your call to make. And I would definitely talk to a parent before doing anything. But if you are not comfortable doing it, it's probably better not to.

    And yeah, its surprising what people don't see sometimes.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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  8. #37
    Member Array HardcoreSlot's Avatar
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    OP, do you not feel comfrotable taking this kid out shooting because of his maturity or experience level? or because you dont feel you posses the proper tools (frame of mind, patience, ect...) to teach him? maybe both?

    Sounds to me like this kid has never been around guns or shooting and you would have to start fresh with someone who knew nothing about the subject. I too would be leary.
    I would think (as it has been in my experience) kids who have been around guns or hunting or shooting since they were very young would be easier to continue shooting and teaching them the proper handling and use of firearms. Some one who had not, the way i see it, may be too excited to really soak up what needs to be learned or recall what they had seen on TV or movies and not what is actually happening. JMO

    I was turned on to shooting and hunting when I was very young. I feel that if I were introduced into a new part of the shooting sports I would be a better student than someone my age who was new to firearms.
    Even though the other person may have the maturaty to understand what is happening, an instuctor (which the OP would be in this case) may have a harder time adapting them to the activity.
    We have some instructors around here; Do you find this to be true? If Im off on the last part please let me know.
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  9. #38
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    just to expand on my point of me feeling like he is not old enough for me to teach and take shooting. It is not just a maturity issue, although it is that as well. It is also a liability issue. With him being a minor, I would want at least a letter of permission from his parents with their signatures on it. If their son chooses to grip my firearm wrong, ignore a safety rule, etc. etc. etc. and gets hurt, the slide laces his hand, gets burned by brass, whatever could happen, it is more liability on me than if I were to take someone over the age of 18. As a correction, 18 is the age of majority most places and in federal government as well. The only thing 21 means is CCW rights in some states and the privilage to drink legally. A signature is legally binding at 18, at 18 in the eyes of the court one is an adult, not to mention the age of voting rights. Btw, the shot at the title of this topic and my maturity level, how many senior members and moderators even have called the unaware sheep and said things such as baaaahhhh as a joke, does that make everyone else that does it immature? lets try to keep things from getting personal and discuss the topic at hand
    I think you are making it WAAAAAAAAY too hard.
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  10. #39
    Member Array Shackleton's Avatar
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    Once again, I was going to stay out of it. However I will say this; I know some people that are 18 that I would love to have by my side if something bad happened. On the other side of that coin, I will also say that there are many 30, 40 + people that I would never, ever take to the range. Case in point: A friend of mine (whom is 18) and I go to the range together from time to time. He knows more about firearms than me, and is extremely respectful of firearms. Once again, the flip side is I let a 34 year old guy check out one of my weapons (I triple checked it was clear and safe) and he asked "What caliber is this?" and pointed the gun directly at his face to look down the barrel.

    Maturity, knowledge, and respect all play into this. There is no test, no way to check it, but if Inccwchris was carrying around me, my thought would be "excellent, he's not a sheep."

    It all comes down to the individual. To me, age has nothing to do with it. I will go so far as to say that if an 18 year old is mature enough to know the laws, carry, and be safe in doing so, I have no problem with it. As long as it's legal.
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  11. #40
    Member Array Shackleton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    I think you are making it WAAAAAAAAY too hard.
    +1.
    Semper Paratus

    ‎"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - George Orwell

  12. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by HardcoreSlot View Post
    Even though the other person may have the maturaty to understand what is happening, an instuctor (which the OP would be in this case) may have a harder time adapting them to the activity.
    OTOH a number of instructors say that many women who have never been shooting are far easier to teach than most men.

    Don't have to un-teach the ingrained bad habits. No ego issues.

    For similar reasons I rather start the typical 9 yo. (boy or girl) than the typical 15 yo. boy.

    However, I do agree with you on the maturity level issue. It is a case-by-case call.

    FWIIW -- I always start a newbie with a single shot 22 rifle, or in the case of a minor with an air rifle. Muzzle control and other safety practices are easier to work on w/ a rifle than a handgun, IMHO.

    As always, YMMV.
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    I am neither an attorney-at-law nor I do play one on television or on the internet. No one should assumes my opinion is legal advice.

    Veni, Vidi, Velcro

  13. #42
    Member Array Roosterbob's Avatar
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    ok so ill bite and put my 2 cents in , speaking as a young man (25) I will stand up and say all the double standards that we as law abiding citizens impose upon ourselves as well as others who fit into our group of armed americans are total and utter bullcrap.

    The criminals we choose to defend against dont have age limits or target a specific group or demographic of people , crimes are against all creeds and kinds of people from 1 to 100 years old .

    so with the being said I dont believe we should hand out guns to anyone who wants one but I believe if at the age of (insert magic number here) One can exhibit a working knowledge of firearm safety Give them a chance to do what the government has proved time and time again is either not there responsibility or dont have the capacity to do , and that is to protect ones self or ones loved ones.

    I know people at the age of 18 who i would whole heartedly trust with my life as well as my familys lives (if the need arised) and on the other hand I know people who are 50 + years old who I wouldnt trust with a rubberband gun ,but that dosent mean they shouldnt be able to defend against possible attack .

    and just a little background I'm 25 happily married for 5 years with two beautiful children ,my son is 4 1/2 and my daughter is 2 1/2 . and I have carried firearms for my entire adult life.

  14. #43
    Member Array rolltide13's Avatar
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    Maturity is definitely a part of carrying a weapon, but nothing is more important than knowledge. im currently a college student and i see people everyday who are extremely mature, completely independent young adults (20-24yo) who i wouldn't trust with a gun even if my life depended on it. they flat out dont know anything about gun safety, every single one tries to put their finger on the trigger, points it dangerously close to people (i stop them before they actually do) and some even go to look down the barrel, and NONE check to see if a gun is loaded or not.




    +1 to the thing about soldiers coming back from iraq and being told they cant carry a weapon --i've seen this first hand as well.

  15. #44
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    hardcore shot, its both, I do not know him well enough yet to make the decision to take him shooting, and at the same time, I do not know that I am knowledgeable enough to create the responsible safe environment in which he could learn. I know I am safe around firearms, and I trust myself to teach people I know well and trust, like my mother, but not someone i met recently and have no real knowledge of their habits or preconceptions
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  16. #45
    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YFZsandrider View Post
    Since when is bowling "semi-strenuous"?!
    The amount of effort that goes into making people take you seriously while you do it...
    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Donít mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

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