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This is a discussion on Baaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Society places the responsibilities of being an adult on a 18 year old so why shouldn't they be allowed the same rights? If our children ...

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  1. #46
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    Society places the responsibilities of being an adult on a 18 year old so why shouldn't they be allowed the same rights? If our children are not responsible enough to exercise those rights at 18, we have only ourselves to blame. I have an 18 year old daughter that I worry about more than my younger daughters. Why? Because she is an adult with adult responsibilities, meaning she travels for school, works nights and does many of the things I do in my daily life. I have the luxery of exercising my right to carry because I'm over 21. She faces many of the same dangers and more because she's a beautiful young lady but she isn't mature enough to protect herself? Hogwash!
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  2. #47
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    I do think 18 is a little young to have a CCW. JMHO. You cannot purchase said handgun until you are 21. You can carry a battle rifle at 18, but with intense training and under specific circumstances and relative supervision. My wife is 21 and more mature than most people 10-20 years her senior I encounter in my everyday routine. She is not the norm for her age group though. I was not ready to carry a gun at 18. I started at 22....and looking back there is a lot of stuff I still needed to know that I didnt. The OP is taking advantage of his state's freedoms, cant blame him, but I think CC would be the best way to go in that situation.
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    I was shocked that people can be so oblivious to their surroundings to not notice something so obvious to me
    It happens quite often really. In WI, although OC is becoming more and more accepted, most people would still probably freak out about it. I can go to Wal-Mart shopping and nobody seems to notice. A couple of weeks ago I was with a buddy cruising around, and we stopped at Target. Since I cannot carry in a vehicle in WI, i had to get out of the car and holster up. It wasn't until we were about done shopping that he realized I had the gun on me, even though I holstered up right next to him and was walking with him the whole time. People just don't look for stuff like that.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    While the kid is 15. he does have the capacity to learn...and shoot under supervision. Teach him the rules of gun safety and safe gun handling (that is, no holster for him!). Tell him what is NOT appropriate (basically, everything he sees on TV and the gun is not shot canted at 0 degrees).
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^EXACTLY^^^^^^^^^^^

    What I was thinking. Get to know the 15 year old through a couple more interactions, and if he seems as though he has his head screwed on straight, take him under your wing, and educate him.

    Starting with this:


    Jeff Cooper's Rules of Gun Safety



    RULE I: ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED

    RULE II: NEVER LET THE MUZZLE COVER ANYTHING YOU ARE NOT WILLING TO DESTROY

    RULE III: KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET

    RULE IV: BE SURE OF YOUR TARGET


    site for full explaination of the 4 rules;

    http://www.thefiringline.com/Misc/safetyrules.html









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  5. #50
    kpw
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwhite75 View Post
    I do think 18 is a little young to have a CCW. JMHO. You cannot purchase said handgun until you are 21. You can carry a battle rifle at 18, but with intense training and under specific circumstances and relative supervision. My wife is 21 and more mature than most people 10-20 years her senior I encounter in my everyday routine. She is not the norm for her age group though. I was not ready to carry a gun at 18. I started at 22....and looking back there is a lot of stuff I still needed to know that I didnt. The OP is taking advantage of his state's freedoms, cant blame him, but I think CC would be the best way to go in that situation.
    That is the point I was making. Age isn't always the best indicator of a responsible adult. You said yourself that at 18 you were not responsible enough, what about your wife? Was she? Here is another question. How many 21+ people do you know that are not responsible enough? I know a bunch that I'd include in that group. Society says they are adults and pushes adult responsibilites on them, wether we like it or not, they should have the same rights and priveleges. If not, keep them minors and let me claim them on my taxes for a few more years!

    Btw, the Feds say no sales from an FFL to an 18 yo but that doesn't mean that can't own one.
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  6. #51
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    I actually could legally buy in a person to person transfer without an FFL dealer in the middle.
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    I actually could legally buy in a person to person transfer without an FFL dealer in the middle.
    Yes, you can. The federal law, GCA does not prohibit an unlicensed resident of his state from selling to another person that is not prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm. Conversely an unlicensed person can acquire a firearm from a person in his state without an FFL, providing it is not prohibited by his/her state law.

    Under GCA long guns and ammunition may be sold only to persons 18 years of age or older. Sales of handguns are limited to persons 21 years of age or older. Although some states and local ordnances have lower age requirements, dealers (FFL) are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA.

    Ammunition can be sold to a person 18 or older by an FFL if the dealer is satisfied that it is for use in a rifle. If the ammunition is intended for use in a handgun, the 21 year old minimum age requirement is applicable. [18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1), 27 CFR 478.99(b)]
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  8. #53
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    Is it illegial to use that loophole to also acquire my ammo for my pistol as long as I am buying it primarily for a long gun? my neighbor owns a HK UMP that I take to the range everytime I go shoot, its cheap on ammo, and fun to shoot. When I go to the gunshop I just take it in (unloaded and cased with a trigger guard) and show them that I am buying ammo for the submachine gun, and I always buy enough ammo to feed my pistol also.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    Is it illegial to use that loophole to also acquire my ammo for my pistol as long as I am buying it primarily for a long gun? my neighbor owns a HK UMP that I take to the range everytime I go shoot, its cheap on ammo, and fun to shoot. When I go to the gunshop I just take it in (unloaded and cased with a trigger guard) and show them that I am buying ammo for the submachine gun, and I always buy enough ammo to feed my pistol also.
    I am afraid it is not a loophole it is part of the the Gun Control Act regulated by The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. You are perhaps unaware of Federal law that preempts your State law. Is the law enforced? Yes, it can be.

    FFL's records can be checked at any time and yes, BATFE does look at ammunition sales. If an FFL is found to be selling handgun ammo to a person under 21, they are in violation of federal law.

    If you, as a person under 21 is found carrying handgun ammunition in your legal handgun, according to Federal law, BATFE, you can be prosecuted.
    I am sure you will tell me everyone does it. That does not make it legal. Internet sales of ammo happen to be a big problem for BATFE because it is mainly unregulated.
    A license is not required for a dealer to engage in the sale of ammunition only. [18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B)]

    Here are a couple of BATFE numbers you can call if you would like to hear it from the source.

    Indianapolis - Industry Operations: 317-248-4002 (your area)
    Kansas City - Industry Operations: 816-559-0730
    St. Louis - Industry Operations: 314-269-2250

    Don't call a field office, their job is to catch BG's.

    Please give them a call and report back to us what they tell you. I'm not trying to bust your chops.
    I know you want to be a law abiding citizen, honest.

    I'm not sure how they handle it where you work. Maybe they consider it supervised.
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  10. #55
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    Question OK -- I'm confused

    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    If you, as a person under 21 is found carrying handgun ammunition in your legal handgun, according to Federal law, BATFE, you can be prosecuted.
    Not intending to hijack the thread, but this latest exchange got my curiosity up.

    Did I miss something in this thread?

    Are you talking about a “juvenile” [a person who is less than 18 years of age] or someone 18-21?

    Citation of law, please.

    Inquiring minds want to know how it is legal to own a handgun -- yet illegal to own ammunition for it?

    I am aware of Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION Subpart F—Conduct of Business 478.99 Certain prohibited sales or deliveries (b)
    Sales or deliveries to underaged persons. A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector shall not sell or deliver (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than 18 years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition, is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than 21 years of age....
    which applies to the dealer.

    But where is the statute re: simple possession of ammunition by an individual 18-21?

    FWIIW

    18 U.S.C. 922(x)(2)

    (x)(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to sell, deliver, or otherwise transfer to a person who the transferor knows or has reasonable cause to believe is a juvenile—

    ....
    (2) It shall be unlawful for any person who is a juvenile to knowingly possess—

    (A) a handgun; or

    (B) ammunition that is suitable for use only in a handgun.

    ....

    (5) For purposes of this subsection, the term “juvenile” means a person who is less than 18 years of age.

    [emphasis added]
    does not appear to cover ammunition that is suitable for use in a both a handgun and long gun and is talking about a "juvenile" and tends to address both the firearm and ammunition with the same restrictions.

    IANAL and one of the problems with researching the law is there is always the possibility that there is a statute or court case, which you haven't read or forgot about. So, I'd love some references.
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  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Not intending to hijack the thread, but this latest exchange got my curiosity up.

    Did I miss something in this thread?

    Are you talking about a “juvenile” [a person who is less than 18 years of age] or someone 18-21?

    Citation of law, please.

    Inquiring minds want to know how it is legal to own a handgun -- yet illegal to own ammunition for it?

    I am aware of Title 27: Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms PART 478—COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION Subpart F—Conduct of Business 478.99 Certain prohibited sales or deliveries (b)

    which applies to the dealer.

    But where is the statute re: simple possession of ammunition by an individual 18-21?

    FWIIW



    does not appear to cover ammunition that is suitable for use in a both a handgun and long gun and is talking about a "juvenile" and tends to address both the firearm and ammunition with the same restrictions.

    IANAL and one of the problems with researching the law is there is always the possibility that there is a statute or court case, which you haven't read or forgot about. So, I'd love some references.
    I beg you pardon? I spoke to my region's BATFE office. No I am not talking about a juvenile. Call the BATFE KC IO and tell me what they tell you.
    I'm an FFL. I know my part of the law. I asked about the under 21 old buyer. 816-559-0730
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  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    I spoke to my region's BATFE office.
    ....
    I'm an FFL. I know my part of the law. I asked about the under 21 old buyer. ....
    Sig

    No offense intended.

    I wasn't asking about an FFL knowing his part of the law. Neither was I asking about what you, as a FFL, can do in the case of a under 21 year old buyer.

    The question I had was where is the law relative to the statement.

    If you, as a person under 21 is found carrying handgun ammunition in your legal handgun, according to Federal law, BATFE, you can be prosecuted.
    Would you please contact your local BATFE contact and get a reference/citation of law for what he/she told you about possession by someone under 21 -- not just about you as a FFL selling to someone under 21.

    Or for that matter would any other FFL / attorney / LEO / or anyone who has that law referenced on a State's or Federal site please post that reference.

    There is a lot I don't know and one of the great things about this site is learning. OTOH, although I'm not from Missouri, I like to see things for myself -- especially if appear to be in conflict with others laws -- such as in this case OC (& in some States CC) before 21.

    As Virginia allows OC of loaded handguns at 18 and there are a fair number of 18-20 yo folk who OC loaded handguns, we need to put this issue to rest. If there is a law against an 18 yo possessing handgun ammo, we need to know about it.

    Is that open carry of a loaded handgun legal or not? Is there is a federal law against it? We need a citation.

    Please advise if you have such a reference.
    Last edited by DaveH; July 29th, 2010 at 12:58 PM. Reason: So as to not be asking just SIGP250 for help
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by DaveH View Post
    Sig

    No offense intended.

    I wasn't asking about an FFL knowing his part of the law. Neither was I asking about what you, as a FFL, can do in the case of a under 21 year old buyer.

    The question I had was where is the law relative to the statement.



    Would you please contact your local contact and get a reference/citation of law for that.

    Or for that matter would any other FFL / attorney / LEO please post that reference.

    There is a lot I don't know and one of the great things about this site is learning. OTOH, although I'm not from Missouri, I like to see things for myself -- especially if appear to be in conflict with others laws such as in this case OC & in some States CC before 21.
    Dave,

    No offense taken.

    I actually did contact the St. Louis IO office after speaking to an agent in KC.
    I mentioned that I had a conversation with another agent earlier in the day. I explained the conversation I had with the KC agent. I stated that I was making inquiry on behalf of a buyer. The conversation, not verbatim, went: "Who's the buyer?" Well he is in Indiana. Agent: "Oh, now you are talking about an intrastate transaction?" Well, No, I'm inquiring specifically about what the KC agent told me which was "yes if a person under 21 buys ammunition from the dealer for a rifle with the intention of using it in a handgun, they can be prosecuted."

    I said, I'm not seeing this in my white book,FFRRG. Could the other agent have been mistaken? Agent:"No, I understand what she was saying. This pertains mainly to interchangeable ammunition." Yes sir, but where can we find this in GCA? Agent: "Well, if you are selling ammo interstate, you need to abide by your state law and the state law where you are selling to. Really, If you are OK selling ammo to him, what he does with it is up to his state." I'm thinking to my self, I'm not going to get an answer to this. So, what you are really telling me is that it is a matter of state law. Agent: "You said he was from Indiana and the age there is 18? I'm not up to date on every state law." Yes, I don't think anyone can be. Agent: "Most states are 21 so it's not an issue. As long as you are okay selling to him..."
    Yes sir, I thank you for your time.

    Dave,

    I can't authoritatively speak to what the penalty, if any, is, for an under aged handgun ammunition buyer. Both agents I spoke with made some comments that conflict.
    One agent said, " well, in most states the age to buy handgun ammo is 21." The fact is, the legal age to buy handgun ammo in ALL states is 21.


    27 CFR 478.99 Conduct of Business

    (b) Sales or deliveries to under-aged persons. A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector shall not sell or deliver (1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than 18 years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition, is other than a shotgun or rifle, or ammunition for a shotgun or rifle, to any individual who the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than 21 years of age, or (2) any firearm to any person in any State where the purchase or possession by such person of such firearm would be in violation of any State law or any published ordinance applicable at the place of sale, delivery, or other disposition, unless the importer, manufacturer, dealer, or collector knows or has reasonable cause to believe that the purchase or possession would not be in violation of such State law or such published ordinance.

    There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that 100's of thousands of rounds of handgun ammunition is sold to persons under 21 by dealers who either don't know the law or don't ask for ID.

    Matter of fact, I just called a national big box retailer. (I fibbed a little). I said, my son who lives in another state wants to buy some handgun ammo. How old does he need to be? The order- taker said 18. I said, are you sure about that? She said what item did you want? I said Remington .45 ACP UMC Bulk, # CGA-21-6806. She said Okay. I said. 27 CFR 478.99 says otherwise.
    Pause..... Sir, is this for a rifle or handgun? I said, handgun (the catalog clearly says UMC Bulk Handgun Ammo). She said, Oh, well we can't sell it to him then.

    So, you be the judge. I know I can't sell handgun ammo to someone under 21. Would a LEO question this during a stop?

    I guess probably not. This would be a good question to ask of LEO's I think.

    EDIT: I'm going to append a bit of what I wrote. I was curious enough about this issue that I spoke with a third agent in Indianapolis today.
    I mentioned my previous conversations. The agent agreed with me that Handgun Ammo, except interchangeable, mainly .22 rim-fire, cannot be purchased from a FFL if there is reasonable doubt that the purchase is for a handgun. She further said that in Indiana, where carry is legal at 18, many are surprised that they cannot purchase a handgun from an FFL if they are under 21.

    She said that ATF does not regulate the buyer, only the dealer. Since carry of a loaded handgun is legal at 18 with a permit in Indiana, police would not normally question where the gun came from or where the ammo came from.
    Last edited by SIGP250; July 29th, 2010 at 03:01 PM. Reason: Add Edit
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  14. #59
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    Thanks Sig!

    Looks as if you went the extra mile and maybe then some.

    IMHO (and IANAL), the agent you spoke with the first time is wrong.

    FWIIW, I spend a lot of time questioning/challenging officials about what they say or do relative to the law.

    In fact, I have associate that uses post cards to do it. It is unbelievable how many officials have it wrong in the advice that they give to the public.
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  15. #60
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    Sig, I also called that number that you provided, the agent that answered said that as long as I can prove I am buying it for the long gun, it is ok, so i would either have to have it with me, or bring a sales reciept
    it is also ok for me to possess the ammo. I just cannot buy it for my handgun

    its confusing laws like this that get people in trouble
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

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