New order for Philly police on OC

This is a discussion on New order for Philly police on OC within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Issued 9-22 Police directive sent to all districts regarding open carry in Philadelphia, PA Sept 22, 2010 GENERAL: 1272 09/22/10 12:53:20 TO : ALL COMMANDING ...

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Thread: New order for Philly police on OC

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    New order for Philly police on OC

    Issued 9-22
    Police directive sent to all districts regarding open carry in Philadelphia, PA Sept 22, 2010

    GENERAL: 1272 09/22/10 12:53:20

    TO : ALL COMMANDING OFFICERS / DEPARTMENT HEADS
    SUBJECT : FIREARM OPEN CARRY LAW IN PHILADELPHIA

    1. DIRECTIVE 137, ENTITLED “FIREARMS” IS BEING UPDATED
    CONCERNING THE PENNSYLVANIA OPEN CARRY LAWS
    REGARDING THE CITY OF PHILADELPHIA. THIS TELETYPE
    REFLECTS THE NEW POLICY AS IT WILL APPEAR IN THE
    DIRECTIVE.

    2. ALL OFFICERS SHOULD BE AWARE THAT PENNSYLVANIA IS
    CONSIDERED AN “OPEN CARRY STATE” WITH THE EXCEPTION OF
    PHILADELPHIA. IT IS IMPORTANT TO DEFINE A FEW TERMS USED,
    WHICH ARE AS FOLLOWS:

    “OPEN CARRY” REFERS TO THE ACT OF OPENLY AND VISIBLY
    CARRYING A FIREARM ON ONE’S PERSON.

    “OPEN CARRY STATE” REFERS TO A STATE THAT ALLOWS
    PEOPLE TO OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A FIREARM ON ONE’S
    PERSON WITHOUT A SPECIAL LICENSE OR PERMIT.

    “CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE” REFERS TO A SPECIFIC
    LICENSE ISSUED TO AN INDIVIDUAL AUTHORIZING THE PERSON
    TO CARRY A FIREARM CONCEALED ON HIS OR HER PERSON OR
    VEHICLE.


    3. IN PHILADELPHIA, UNLIKE ANY OTHER PART OF THE STATE, FOR
    ANY PERSON TO LAWFULLY, OPENLY AND VISIBLY CARRY A
    FIREARM, THAT PERSON MUST HAVE A CONCEALED CARRY
    FIREARMS LICENSE. SO, IN PHILADELPHIA, IF A PERSON HAS A
    VALID CONCEALED CARRY FIREARMS LICENSE, HE OR SHE CAN
    LEGALLY CARRY A FIREARM EITHER OPEN AND VISIBLE OR
    CONCEALED.

    4. AN OFFICER ENCOUNTERING A PERSON CARRYING A FIREARM
    OPENLY IN PHILADELPHIA SHOULD FOR THE SAFTEY OF PUBLIC
    INVESTIGATE AS A POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION.

    A. SINCE A SEPARATE LICENSE IS REQUIRED IN PHILADELPHIA
    AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY OFFICER TO KNOW WHO DOES
    AND DOES NOT HAVE A VALID CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE, IT
    IS ENTIRELY REASONALBE FOR OFFICERS TO TEMPORARILY
    DETAIN AND INVESTIGATE ANY INDIVIDUAL CARRYING A
    FIREARM EXPOSED TO DETERMINE IF THE PERSON IS
    OPERATING WITH THE LAW.

    B. IMMEDIATLEY SEIZE ANY FIREARMS FOR OFFICER SAFETY
    DURING THE STOP AND UNLOAD THE FIREARMS IF POSSIBLE,
    BUT ONLY IF IT CAN BE DONE SAFELY.

    C. A 75-48A MUST BE COMPLETED AND THE BASIS FOR THE STOP
    WOULD BE A “POSSIBLE VUFA VIOLATION”


    D. ONCE THE OFFICER RECEIVES CONFIRMATION THAT THE
    CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE IS VALID, AND THERE ARE NO
    OTHER OFFENSE OR VIOLATIONS BEING INVESTIGATED,
    OFFICERS SHOULD RETURN THE FIREARM AND AMMUNITION
    BACK TO THE INDIVIDUAL AT THE END OF THE STOP.

    E. HOWEVER, IF THE INDIVIDUAL CANNOT PRODUCE A VALID
    CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE OR THE LICENSE IS NOT VALID
    (I.E. EXPIRED OR REVOKED), PROBABLE CAUSE THEN EXISTS
    TO ARREST THE INDIVIDUAL FOR THE VUFAVIOLATION AND
    TRANSPORT THE INDIVIDUAL TO THE DIVISIONAL DETECTIVES
    FOR PROCESSING. THE FIREARM AND AMMUNITION SHOULD
    BE PLACED ON A PROPERTY RECEIPT (75-3) AND MARKED AS
    “ EVIDENCE”. A 75-48A FOR THE INITIAL STOP MUST BE
    PREPARD ALONG WITH A 75-48 FOR THE VUFA ARREST.

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  3. #2
    Member Array ncsteveh's Avatar
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    A. SINCE A SEPARATE LICENSE IS REQUIRED IN PHILADELPHIA
    AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR ANY OFFICER TO KNOW WHO DOES
    AND DOES NOT HAVE A VALID CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE, IT
    IS ENTIRELY REASONALBE FOR OFFICERS TO TEMPORARILY
    DETAIN AND INVESTIGATE ANY INDIVIDUAL CARRYING A
    FIREARM EXPOSED TO DETERMINE IF THE PERSON IS
    OPERATING WITH THE LAW.


    If I am reading this correctly they are implying that Philly has there own separate permit to carry in the city? Am I wrong?

  4. #3
    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    No, when PA redid the gun laws, Philly was exempted. Philly rule is to OC you need either a PA license or one from a reciprocal state.

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    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncsteveh View Post
    If I am reading this correctly they are implying that Philly has there own separate permit to carry in the city? Am I wrong?
    It appears that in order to carry concealed anywhere in the state would require a concealed permit. Open carry is allowed without a permit everywhere in the state except in the city of Philadelphia. If you want to OC in the city of Philadelphia it would require the concealed permit. The concealed permit is not a special permit designed just for Philadelphia.
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

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    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ncsteveh View Post
    Am I wrong?
    No. That "separate license" line really bothers me.

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    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by swinokur View Post
    No, when PA redid the gun laws, Philly was exempted. Philly rule is to OC you need either a PA license or one from a reciprocal state.
    Philly was not exempted. It is not Philly rule. It is Commonwealth law.

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    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    Well... I guess that is better clarification. However, I think I object to the accosting of citizens who are OC simply to ensure they have a license. There is no probably cause generated simply by the act of OC'ing in my humble opinion. It would be somewhat akin to randomly stopping citizens on the street to ensure they are not CCing.

    Oh, and did you note they misspelled "reasonable" as "reasonalbe"?
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
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    Ok I am asking this because I truly do not know. Is this a good thing? Is seems this in conflict with Penn state law? What is a VUFA violation?
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Ok I am asking this because I truly do not know. Is this a good thing? Is seems this in conflict with Penn state law? What is a VUFA violation?
    Violation of the Uniform Firearms Act
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

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    Member Array roalho's Avatar
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    Hmmm...their logic is a little fuzzy, IMO. Kind of like getting spotted driving a car, and pulled over just to make sure you have a drivers license.

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    yeah lets stop everyone to make sure they are following the law

    "Hey you, let me see your passport, green card, driver's license, contractor license, CCW" okay you aren't doing anything wrong, have a nice day sorry to waste 30 minutes of your life
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    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chivvalry View Post
    Oh, and did you note they misspelled "reasonable" as "reasonalbe"?
    Didn't notice, but I did see that you misspelled "probable" as "probably".

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    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chivvalry View Post
    Well... I guess that is better clarification. However, I think I object to the accosting of citizens who are OC simply to ensure they have a license. There is no probably cause generated simply by the act of OC'ing in my humble opinion. It would be somewhat akin to randomly stopping citizens on the street to ensure they are not CCing.

    Oh, and did you note they misspelled "reasonable" as "reasonalbe"?
    previous case law says that OC that requires a permit is enough RAS for a cop to temporarily detain you.. this involved a guy getting on a train in GA

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    Quote Originally Posted by chivvalry View Post
    Violation of the Uniform Firearms Act
    The Act sure doesn't seem very uniform since it is different from the rest of the Commonwealth.
    Rick

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    Senior Member Array unloved's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rstickle View Post
    The Act sure doesn't seem very uniform since it is different from the rest of the Commonwealth.
    The Act is uniform. As much as PPD, and Philly politicians, would like there to be, there is no difference. To be precise, Philly is not a special case. The law requires a LTCF for OC in "cities of the first class". A city of the first class is defined as one having a population of 1,000,000, or more. Philadelphia is not mentioned by name. It just happens to be the only city in PA that meets the definition of a city of the first class at this time.

    Philly politicians don't like our firearms preemption statute. They're constantly agitating for "home rule". PPD erroneously believes itself to be exempt from the UFA. That's what this is about.

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