Wisconsin Carry, Inc fast-tracking Open Carrry lawsuit against Madison Police Dept

This is a discussion on Wisconsin Carry, Inc fast-tracking Open Carrry lawsuit against Madison Police Dept within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Posted from : http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...epartment.html On Saturday September 18th, Wisconsin Carry received a call to our hotline about an incident in progress at a Culvers Restaurant ...

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Thread: Wisconsin Carry, Inc fast-tracking Open Carrry lawsuit against Madison Police Dept

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    Member Array Chroode's Avatar
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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc fast-tracking Open Carrry lawsuit against Madison Police Dept

    Posted from : http://www.usacarry.com/forums/open-...epartment.html

    On Saturday September 18th, Wisconsin Carry received a call to our hotline about an incident in progress at a Culvers Restaurant in Madison, WI.

    5 of our members who had met at previous WCI events and on the opencarry.org discussion forum planned to get together for dinner at Culvers Restaurant near East Towne in Madison, WI. They were, of course, open-carrying as they do every day.

    Based on information gathered over the past several days here are the facts of the case:

    Our members had finished dinner and were outside preparing to leave when 8 Madison Police officers arrived and began to demand ID. Officers told the members that if they did not produce ID they would be arrested.

    2 of the 5 declined to provide ID. Wisconsin law does NOT allow officers to demand ID from individuals who have done nothing wrong. Wisconsin law also specifically does not allow officers to arrest an individual who has done nothing wrong for merely refusing to show ID.

    2 of our members were subsequently arrested and charged with obstructing.

    It was later learned that a 62 year old woman in the restaurant had called 911 and inquired as to whether it was legal for people to openly carry firearms. The caller indicated there was no disturbance but she was "worried". Madison Police responded, not by informing the caller that open-carry is legal, but rather sending 8 officers to respond to a peaceful situation.

    It is a person's choice whether or not they wish to provide the police their ID when they have done nothing wrong. Without knowing the motivation of officers who are aggressively demanding ID and threatening arrest, its understandable why a person who has done nothing wrong would want to maintain their privacy. Its IMPERATIVE that police follow the law. Police are not allowed to arrest you for merely failing to provide ID. If the police can operate outside of the law, it does us NO good to vote and elect legislators to represent us and pass laws if the police will make-up and enforce whatever they feel like enforcing.

    Wisconsin Carry fully expected that on Monday morning, those with an education in the law would return to their office from the weekend and promptly recognize the error made by the officers on the scene.

    Madison Police DID recognize their error and rescinded the tickets for obstruction that were issued to 2 of our members. Madison Police admit in a press release those tickets were given in error. Madison Police then issued Disorderly Conduct citations to ALL 5 of our members. According to Madison Police, if ONE person is 'worried', even though there is no disturbance, your constitutional rights mean nothing. Wisconsin's Attorney General CLEARLY stated in a memo in April of 2009 that open-carry IS NOT disorderly conduct.

    Madison Police then continued their disregard for Wisconsin residents constitutional rights by issuing a statement indicating that Madison police will: Approach anyone who is open-carrying using "the proper tactical response. The individual should be contacted, controlled, and frisked for weapons if appropriate. Officers should separate the suspect from any weapons in his/her possession during the encounter."

    Read the press release here:

    City of Madison News Release

    As such, Wisconsin Carry will be fast-tracking a federal lawsuit against the Madison Police Department for this policy which is a blatant and defenseless violation of the rights of law-abiding citizens who are doing nothing wrong.

    Wisconsin Carry will also, if needed, retain an attorney to challenge the Disorderly Conduct citations issued to 5 of our members.

    Wisconsin Carry feels this is a fundamental issue, and a situation that has implications for every resident in the state of Wisconsin. Police Departments all across the state have received the AG memo and responded accordingly training officers in the appropriate and lawful response to a law-abiding citizen open-carrying. Madison MUST be held to the same standard. Wisconsin law apply's to everyone in the state, not just those outside of Madison. Its imperative that the Madison Police Department follow the law. Very soon, we expect Wisconsinites to have the ability to legally conceal carry. If police do not respect the legal right to open-carry we already have, how can we expect them to respect the right to conceal carry that we all seek as well?

    WE NEED YOUR HELP.

    In order to get this lawsuit filed quickly, we need donations to fund the legal fee's.

    If you can donate specifically for the "Madison 5" lawsuit please visit our homepage:

    Welcome to Wisconsin Carry, Inc.

    On the main page you will see a "Donate" button where you can make a donation that will go specifically to this "Madison 5" lawsuit.

    You may also mail a donation to:

    Wisconsin Carry, Inc.
    P.O. Box 270403
    Milwaukee, WI 53227

    This incident has received a huge amount of attention from the media. Its possible it may even garner national attention in the near future.

    Many discussions regarding the incident, and links to media coverage of the incident are taking place on the discussion forums at opencarry.org:

    Wisconsin

    You may also follow this and other Wisconsin Carry activities by joining Wisconsin Carry's facebook group: Search "Wisconsin Carry, Inc" or "Wisconsin Carry" on facebook.

    If you haven't already done so, we also invite you to officially join Wisconsin Carry from out website as well. Membership is $15 for the first year.

    Please spread this information to other online gun forums etc as we seek to protect and expand the rights of Wisconsin residents to carry.

    Wisconsin Carry, Inc is a non-profit all volunteer organization. We are dedicated to the protection and expansion of the rights of law-abiding Wisconsinites to carry in the manner of their choosing. We believe that "open carry" or "conceal carry" are choices to be made by YOU the law abiding citizen based on what suits your needs. As open-carry is (with a few exceptions where conceal carry is already found legal) the only way to currently carry in Wisconsin, we advocate that all who wish to carry follow state law while we pursue an expansive conceal carry right for all law-abiding Wisconsinites during the next legislative session.

    Carry On,

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    I wish I could have been a fly on the wall at this incident.

    If I was employed I'd be more than happy to contribute. I can only offer my moral support. If you win this, send a copy of the case to Philly.

    My understanding of the law is I don't have to have identification. I do have to produce a "license" or "permit" for any activity that requires one (driving, concealed carry, etc.), but not for existing. A John Doe walking down the street or anything else that is not illegal has no need for ID.

    Anyone? Am I wrong?
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    Distinguished Member Array LanceORYGUN's Avatar
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    The link to get to their website to make donations is this:

    http://www.wisconsincarry.org/default.html#


    The donate option is located in the upper right corner of the webpage.

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    My God they have a hotline? "Bill this is Bob, I just got looked over by a deli manager in Safeway while OC'ing my Kimber at 3:30 in a Milt Sparks Rig. Roger will alert the media and the deli managers union of their actions. Oh wait their union is anti gun will get back to you in a minute on this, Hotline out." Sorry I couldn't resist.

    I thought the woman was not even in the restaurant when she called? Oh well there will 6 different versions of the same event.
    Anyways I wish the Madison 5 good luck in their endeavors.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    The caller indicated there was no disturbance but she was "worried"
    It always amazes me how a hoplophob thinks nothing of an LEO open carrying but all but becomes catatonic at the sight of a normal citizen open carrying.
    When you have to shoot, shoot. Don't talk.
    "Don't forget, incoming fire has the right of way."

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    Wisconsin Carry, Inc filed a Federal lawsuit against the City of Madison

    A copy of this lawsuit is available here

    The City of Madison may not deny individuals the right to carry handguns in nonsensitive places, deprive individuals of the right to carry handguns in an arbitrary and capricious manner, or enforce its laws, customs and practices through its police department or impose regulations on the right to carry handguns that are inconsistent with the rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and Article I, § 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution.

    On Saturday, September 18, 2010, five (5) members of WCI met for dinner at a Culvers Restaurant in Madison, Wisconsin. Each of these individuals was openly carrying a handgun when they arrived at the restaurant, entered the restaurant and ordered and ate their meals. At or about the time that the WCI members finished their meal and left the restaurant, a woman in her car observed them openly carrying handguns and called 911 to report it to the City of Madison Police Department. The 911 caller informed the dispatcher that she didn't know if it was an emergency, the men were doing nothing wrong and appeared totally relaxed, weren't threatening anyone and the restaurant was full of people but they each had sidearms and she didn't know if that was legal.

    Upon being informed by the 911 dispatcher that open-carry is legal the woman stated "then there is no problem and its not an emergency". The dispatcher then suggests that if the woman is concerned or disturbed then it becomes a problem and the woman says "no they weren't threatening anybody or acting threatening". When the dispatcher informs the caller they are sending officers she says "well I feel bad then because they weren't doing anything wrong"

    Listen to the 911 call here:

    As these WCI members left the restaurant, they were accosted by eight(8) City of Madison police officers, who demanded that they produce identification, and threatened that if they did not do so, they would be arrested. From the time that these WCI members arrived at the restaurant up to and including the time that the police officers confronted them and demanded that they produce identification or face arrest, none of the WCI members violated any law, nor were they involved in any violent, abusive, indecent, profane, boisterous, unreasonably loud or otherwise disorderly conduct, nor did they through their conduct cause or provoke any disturbance.

    Wisconsin law does not allow officers to arrest for merely refusing to provide ID. 2 days later, Madison Police admitted the error in arresting and charging our members with obstruction, rescinded those tickets and instead, despite there being no disturbance, and no laws broken, issued disorderly conduct charges to all 5 of our members.

    The Madison Police Department also issued a press release which relayed a department procedure which would violate the rights of law-abiding open-carriers who would choose to go legally armed for self-defense in Madison. The press release can be read here:

    By arresting our members without cause and issuing a press release detailing a policy of violating the rights of other law-abiding open-carriers who should choose to carry in Madison, Wisconsin Carry immediately took action to file a lawsuit to prevent this chilling effect on the right to Carry in Madison. We look forward to the precedent this lawsuit will set.

    Those who work, live, or travel to Madison are entitled to the same rights as the rest of the state. Wisconsin has a state and federal constitutionally guaranteed right to carry. Open-carry is the only legal way to carry in this state. Wisconsin's attorney general verified the legality of open-carry in a memo to all police chiefs and district attorney's in 2009. The City of Madison may not deny individuals the right to carry handguns in nonsensitive places, deprive individuals of the right to carry handguns in an arbitrary and capricious manner, or enforce its laws, customs and practices through its police department or impose regulations on the right to carry handguns that are inconsistent with the rights guaranteed by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution and Article I, § 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution.

    The financial support from across the country extended to Wisconsin Carry which allows us the resources to file this lawsuit has been exceptional. On behalf of WCI, our members, and freedom minded Wisconsinites who embrace the right to carry we wish to offer a special thank-you to Buckeye Firearms Foundation.

    BFF is a tax-exempt foundation which collected and matched donations from people across the country totaling over $7,500 through their website:

    Wisconsin Carry is a non-profit 100% volunteer organization dedicated to the protection and expansion of the right of law-abiding Wisconsinites to carry in the manner of their choosing; open carry or concealed carry.

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    VIP Member Array hogdaddy's Avatar
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    OldVet, If a LEO officer stops you for walking down the street & asks for ID, It would be in your BEST intrest to ablideg, As FL is a MUST SHOW & CARRY ID state ; )
    H/D
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    They weren't in Florida, were they?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hogdaddy View Post
    OldVet, If a LEO officer stops you for walking down the street & asks for ID, It would be in your BEST intrest to ablideg, As FL is a MUST SHOW & CARRY ID state ; )
    H/D
    Unless you have a reference to a state statute, I have to disagree with you on this. You must have a license to drive, carry, fish, etc. and produce same on request, but I can find no reference stating that all persons must carry and/or produce ID. I may be required to identify myself ("My name is OldVet. I live at....) but I can find no requirement to carry identification at all times. Note that I am saying there is a difference between "identifying" youself and carrying some form of "identification."

    Here is the only statute I could find:
    DRUNKENNESS; OPEN HOUSE PARTIES; LOITERING; PROWLING; DESERTION View Entire Chapter

    856.021Loitering or prowling; penalty.
    —(1)It is unlawful for any person to loiter or prowl in a place, at a time or in a manner not usual for law-abiding individuals, under circumstances that warrant a justifiable and reasonable alarm or immediate concern for the safety of persons or property in the vicinity.

    (2)Among the circumstances which may be considered in determining whether such alarm or immediate concern is warranted is the fact that the person takes flight upon appearance of a law enforcement officer, refuses to identify himself or herself, or manifestly endeavors to conceal himself or herself or any object. Unless flight by the person or other circumstance makes it impracticable, a law enforcement officer shall, prior to any arrest for an offense under this section, afford the person an opportunity to dispel any alarm or immediate concern which would otherwise be warranted by requesting the person to identify himself or herself and explain his or her presence and conduct. No person shall be convicted of an offense under this section if the law enforcement officer did not comply with this procedure or if it appears at trial that the explanation given by the person is true and, if believed by the officer at the time, would have dispelled the alarm or immediate concern.

    (3)Any person violating the provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s. 775.082 or s. 775.083.

    I do not believe this would apply to any lawful conduct. If you have any Florida statute or ruling reference that states clearly that we must "carry" any form of identification while acting lawfully, other than the agreed actions that require a license and ID (driving, carrying, hunting, fishing, etc.), I would appreciate it and will stand corrected.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    In many states when asked by an LEO you must show ID and you must cooperate with the officer or face charges. Different states, different laws.

    As was brought up in the other topic running on this the WI Disorderly statute is so vague that it allows for way to much interpretation from both ends of he spectrum. They don't have to be creating a disturbance just engaging in conduct that could tend to lead to one. Now who interprets what that is? The lady that called didn't seem upset but yet she called so it could be said that the conduct of legally carrying could lead to a disturbance. The statute also does not say that the activity be legal or illegal just that it could lead to something.

    This needs to be clarified for all concerned to avoid further issues like this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    In many states when asked by an LEO you must show ID and you must cooperate with the officer or face charges. Different states, different laws.

    As was brought up in the other topic running on this the WI Disorderly statute is so vague that it allows for way to much interpretation from both ends of he spectrum. They don't have to be creating a disturbance just engaging in conduct that could tend to lead to one. Now who interprets what that is? The lady that called didn't seem upset but yet she called so it could be said that the conduct of legally carrying could lead to a disturbance. The statute also does not say that the activity be legal or illegal just that it could lead to something.

    This needs to be clarified for all concerned to avoid further issues like this.
    However...the mere act of doing something specifically enumerated in the state constitution as a right is hard to reconcile with disorderly conduct even by their definition.
    Gun Control: The theory that a woman found dead in an alley, raped and strangled with her panty hose, is somehow morally superior to a woman explaining to police how her attacker got that fatal bullet wound.

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    Pax you would think that would be the case but with such a generic statute who knows. As I stated who determines what the act is? It is completely up to the person or persons who see it, chooses to report it, who responds and so on and each one can interpret it differently.
    Who knows.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    Senior Member Array JohnK87's Avatar
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    In MN you must produce your permit to carry if asked by a police officer. This doesn't occur in WI because open carry is a constitutional right, not requiring a permit.
    ‎An enemy of liberty is no friend of mine. I do not owe respect to anyone who would enslave me by government force, nor is it wise for such a person to expect it. -- Isaiah Amberay

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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    In many states when asked by an LEO you must show ID and you must cooperate with the officer or face charges. Different states, different laws.

    As was brought up in the other topic running on this the WI Disorderly statute is so vague that it allows for way to much interpretation from both ends of he spectrum. They don't have to be creating a disturbance just engaging in conduct that could tend to lead to one. Now who interprets what that is? The lady that called didn't seem upset but yet she called so it could be said that the conduct of legally carrying could lead to a disturbance. The statute also does not say that the activity be legal or illegal just that it could lead to something.

    This needs to be clarified for all concerned to avoid further issues like this.
    But that will never happen. It's not just WI. Look at any DisCon statute/law/rule etc etc. in any jurisdiction in the country. They are purposefully written vague so that even if you have broken no other law, they have something that they can charge you with to make it look like they were right.

    **EDIT -- And for the record, coming from someone in the business... That 911 dispatcher is straight garbage....**

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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceORYGUN View Post
    The link to get to their website to make donations is this:

    http://www.wisconsincarry.org/default.html#


    The donate option is located in the upper right corner of the webpage.
    Wow. Did you read the story on their page of the incident that happened Oct 7? Probably ran here somewhere...

    The cops actually drew on a lady with no legit reason. Now they are endangering law abiding citizens. Things are out of control in WI...
    We're all in favor of reducing violent crime. It's just that pro-gunners have a method that is proven effective. Anti-gunners don't.
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    John Moses Browning day is January 24th, 2011

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