Responsible and Sensible OC In California
This is a discussion on Responsible and Sensible OC In California within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Anyone feeling the need to make a point about open carry in this state needs to give some thought about what the point to be ...
November 17th, 2010 03:26 PM
Responsible and Sensible OC In California
Anyone feeling the need to make a point about open carry in this state needs to give some thought about what the point to be made is.
We already have the right to carry openly, no points need to be made. One talking point seems to be the feeling that a right has to be used or you'll lose it, that's bull puckey. Flaunt it in the wrong place and way in this state and you will be the cause of losing it.
We live in the most gun unfriendly state in the USA, the fastest way to lose the right we already have is to unnecessarily stick it in people's faces in as obvious and confrontational a manner as is possible.
Anyone open carrying is going to face the possibility of having a police officer who's job is to assess whether someone who is carrying a gun is a threat or not. How's he going to do this if he isn't going to start a dialog with you? Could I see some ID is a great start and your response is crucial to a smooth conversation that get's you on your way with a "have a nice day". You have to show ID and go through a background check to buy a gun, what's the big deal about showing a cop your driver's license?
If your goal in open carry is to give people a chance to get used to seeing guns that's good. But why would you then take it a step further and bring your "right" to not show ID into an otherwise reasonable situation? When you stand there drawing a crowd because you are making cops nervous about your attitude you are not advancing the position of allowing people to feel comfortable seeing guns on the street. You are in fact leaving the impression that it is unreasonable jerks doing the carrying. A reasonable person would show his ID (after all what's the cop going to do with it that can hurt you?) and have a quiet and calm conversation that leaves the cop signing off with "have a nice day".
That is what leaves everyone who witnesses the incident left with a calm feeling about what took place. If you feel the need to prove this point, don't fall into thinking making this as confrontational as possible is furthering the cause of open carry, we already have it, the only other way it can go is to lose it. If you don't think that can happen in California you are too dense to carry a gun in the first place.
I depended on open carry several times in ways that saved me, literally. I had a guy and his group of thugs trying to extort me out of money and goods and it wasn't going well for him as I was always armed. He even tried me as I was leaving the store thinking I wouldn't be carrying in a public place, he was wrong. I filed several incident reports and this will be what I need to get a concealed permit in ElDorado County which is one of the easier counties.
There are counties where concealed permits absolutely aren't happening for any reason. Open Carry is the saving grace for guys with businesses that generate a lot of cash in these counties, they depend on it. Don't be the idiot that creates an incident in the name of promoting awareness thinking you are some kind of civil rights hero, that's delusional. I see the few that have no real need to carry screwing up a right people who really do need to carry already have.
This is a battle that simply will not be won in this state if it comes up on the ballot, it's that simple.
Yeah, open carry, but do it in as low key a way as possible and be a diplomat for this cause by not bringing ID issues into it.
I'm adding this:
I could easily make the case before it ever happens that the cop who talks to someone open carrying and lets them walk away without checking ID could and would cause the city a huge liability if he then went on to commit a crime and shot innocent people. It would raise the bar on damages with a jury of ignorant peers. The legal system would plug this hole by making OC illegal in a heartbeat. The more we see people open carrying the greater the chances we will see criminals open carrying since it's legal. Showing an ID is about the most sensible and reasonable way to have good outcomes we can do. I don't want to be right and fighting the legal battle that catalyzes the issue.
November 17th, 2010 04:23 PM
Im sorry, I saw California and the word sensible in the same sentence and thought it was a typo.
November 17th, 2010 04:56 PM
Well written Woodguru! The same thing happens in gun-friendly Arizona. Too many folks want to shove it in the face of those who might disagree. This solves nothing.
Treat me good, I'll treat you better. Treat me bad, I'll treat you worse.
November 17th, 2010 06:42 PM
Only one correction to your otherwise excellent comments... New Jersey easily beats California in a contest for least gun-friendly state.
No CCW. No state preemption protection. No open carry. No right to even own a handgun...except by exemption (i.e. guilty until proven innocent.)
(You do have some goofy laws restricting mag size, and gun design, etc.)
Anyway, well-thought out and compelling points.
The United States Constitution © 1791. All Rights Reserved.
November 17th, 2010 08:44 PM
Illinois is by far the winner as far as least gun friendly.....no open carry, no concealed carry.....period. And Chicago just allowed residents to own handguns...but using them is against the law.
November 17th, 2010 08:44 PM
Wait, you cannot even own a handgun in New Jersey? Not trying to hijack the thread or anything, but I didn't know that Jersey was that bad. I knew that New York was almost that bad, but not Jersey.
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November 17th, 2010 10:12 PM
I agree the point the OP is trying to make, or the one I think he is trying to make. Making a BIG point of it, making it a confrontational thing like many do, also turns a lot of people who are actually for open carry... off supporting these same folks that think they are fighting for it. They turn more people off the subject, than they will ever gain support purely as a result of the tactics being used. There are better ways to do it....
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Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."
November 17th, 2010 11:18 PM
Woodguru welcome. You are echoing the sentiments of many of us here but many times when we say the same thing we are anti this and anti that.
The keys words to your whole post are responsible and sensible but sometimes those words are overlooked. Oustanding post sir.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
November 17th, 2010 11:54 PM
Welcome to the site.
November 18th, 2010 01:36 AM
I'm not saying how I would react to an officer one way or the other. But the older I get, or the more I pay attention. The more it seems that words like reasonable, sensible, common sense and phrases like "you have nothing to hide", "it's just a minor inconvenience", "it's for your own good", and the ever popular "it's for the children" are simply catch phrases for whittling away the rights of responsible, law abiding citizens.
Why is it that when I break the law, I am held accountable to it? But if I know the law, and stand up for my rights under the law in an uncomfortable situation, I am a trouble maker?
Old age may also be making me cranky.
I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!
"Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"
November 18th, 2010 02:25 AM
I agree that OC anywhere needs to be done responsibly but I think this can be done without giving up natural and constitutional individual rights.
I don't think that your point about criminals OC'ing because they know they won't be hassled is valid. Most states allow OC and don't allow their police force to hassle OC'ers. This has not been a problem for those states. Besides if OC'ing was somehow more dangerous for Bad Guys, they'd just CC (which I believe they do anyway).
One of the reasons I am against giving up any liberties is that sometimes this quickly escalates into craziness. Example one: In WI a police chief thinks that he can get away with ID'ing OC'ers and therefore instructs his officers to ID every OC'er that they see. Example two: One of our own here on the forum was cited for CC'ing a firearm when that firearm was unconcealed on his belt. The officer said that he couldn't see it from the other side and that if the citizen wanted to properly OC he should carry the firearm on his head where it could be seen 360 degrees......really.
Civility and reasonableness will go a long way. However, I politely refuse to concede any of my rights.
BTW, if a cop wants to talk guns with me, I'll talk with them all day. Just don't start by asking me for my ID.
I don't carry when I'm in CA because I'm a CC'er by nature (so far). So you don't have to worry about me showing up on the news.
We're all in favor of reducing violent crime. It's just that pro-gunners have a method that is proven effective. Anti-gunners don't.
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November 18th, 2010 06:12 AM
OP are you saying that since OC is legal that no one should do it, in fear of it becoming illegal? That once one has a right it is inappropriate to exercise that right?
I agree that OCers, CCers and gun owners in general have a 'long row to hoe' in Cali but giving up on your rights isn't an option. Less confrontational, more friendly sure. But I'm hopeful that one day the good people of Cali will realize that their gun laws are not in line with most states here in the US and are indeed quite silly.
Here in VA armed OC has always been legal but wasn't much of an issue until about five years ago when several activist groups pushed the issue with some LEOs who didn't know the law. Now OC is a non issue among LEOs and citizens alike.
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November 18th, 2010 11:43 AM
And what happens if a cop checks the ID and then that person commits a crime and shot people? Is the city free of liability?
Originally Posted by Woodguru
If anything, the cop checking the ID and letting that person go increases liability because that's a willful act. The law does not require an ID check.
November 18th, 2010 12:00 PM
That's how I understand his post. That is ridiculous to me, I'm a Police Officer, and I would advise you to NOT GIVE UP YOUR RIGHTS! I can understand wanting people to be courteous and non-confrontational when OCing, but don't feel required to give up a right because some people think it the prudent thing to do to not rock the boat.
Originally Posted by paramedic70002
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
November 18th, 2010 12:23 PM
I'm not sure how you came to the idea I am talking about not carrying at all. What my point is is that if you are going to that it be done in a low key manner not designed to attract attention. If you feel the need to step up awareness make sure that part of it is not pushing other "rights" such as showing ID, make it a benign part of working with those who's job it is to protect unarmed citizens against threats.
Originally Posted by paramedic70002
Quite frankly people get stupid about picking their "rights" they are going to protect, it's being silly to worry about having to show ID. You are "forced" to show ID if you want to buy a gun, you are forced to show ID at the airport to get on a plane, you are forced to show a passport when travelling to other countries. All of a sudden it's a big deal to show ID to a cop who might like to see it while he gauges whether or not you are a threat by having a gun in public?
There in Virginia is a damn sight different than here in California. The warning shot across the bow was the case in San Diego that got pushed to a lawsuit and resulted in an attempt to legislate against open carry. That attempt should be a wakeup call, it got a 21/16 vote in committee to go to the floor for a vote. Open carry wouldn't have even been on that San Diego Representative's mind if the city hadn't been sued for it's police making a mistake. My point was that as an issue there's a point to be made and a place where it's pushed beyond the point being made to where there's a fight about it over non related "rights". I would say that if it went to a public vote I would worry about the fate of open carry in California. There are a lot of anti people on one side, a lot of people who support open carry on the other, and 80% in the middle that doesn't care enough to vote on it. We have to worry about the people who don't see it as an issue so they will not support it which gets NO votes. It's not a good thing for the middle to see a confrontational mindset over showing ID, it makes the OC side look like idiots. These are little battle skirmishes that mean nothing to "win" if it results in an overall elimination of a right we already have.
Sorry, this is California and I'm a realist. I don't agree with the way it is, but I choose when to buck something and when to leave well enough alone. I carry, but I also have the ability to get a concealed permit which I'm doing so it won't affect me if a bunch of guys that don't need to carry screw it up for those who really do. The ones who really do have threats in their lives carry with a distinct sense of being as low key as possible. They carry when the threat is more likely, not to strap on for a trip to Starbucks. Making a big deal about something you already have the right to do is just goofy, just do it without making a big deal about it.
Last edited by Woodguru; November 18th, 2010 at 12:54 PM.
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