My Detainment for Open Carry

My Detainment for Open Carry

This is a discussion on My Detainment for Open Carry within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I wrote this up at opencarry.org, it is long. Feel free to discuss here or there (I check both regularly). My Story I prefer not ...

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Thread: My Detainment for Open Carry

  1. #1
    Member Array Glock30Owner's Avatar
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    My Detainment for Open Carry

    I wrote this up at opencarry.org, it is long.

    Feel free to discuss here or there (I check both regularly).

    My Story

    I prefer not to cut and paste the story every where, but will repost it here if requested.




    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Several months back (during late summer), I was open carrying my firearm, as I normally do. I had the day off work and I was running a number of errands for myself and girlfriend.

    I had dropped my girlfriend off at the Matthew Walker clinic, in Nashville, and I went to the Davidson County Clerk's office, in Maddison, to renew my license plates. I stood in line at the clerks office (open carrying) without any incident or even a sideways glance.

    When I was done, I did a few more quick errands (all without incident) and proceded back to the clinic to see if my girlfriend was finished.

    I park in the Matthew Walker Clinic and start to walk in when I see a sign with a gun (no circle slash, either) that reads, "Concealed Deadly Weapons are Prohibited". Knowing that our signage laws had recently changed (allowing very minimal verbage and the circle slash symbol to carry legal weight) I checked the other public entrances for signs. I found none and proceded inside while openly carrying a firearm on my hip (as I had all day).

    I approach the reception desk and inquired about my girlfriend and was told that she had recently went back to see a doctor and I could sit in the waiting room to wait for her. So, I sat down and started to watch the TV.

    I'd been sitting there for about 10 minuted when an armed security guard (mid 40s age) approached me and asked if I would step into the foyer with him. I followed him out and his calm polite attitude changed instantly. He asked/demanded to know if I had a carry permit. I continued to be police and stated that I did. He then demanded that I show it to him. I looked at him and smiled. I stated that Tennessee State law did not require me to show him my HCP unless he was a police officer.

    I aksed him, "Are you a police officer?", he replied, "Yes." I then stated to him, "Since you are not in a police uniform, I would like to see your department issued ID before I show you my HCP." He nodded and proceded outside to his van and retrieved something. When he returned, he showed me his Tennessee Issued Armed Guard License.

    I stated to the guard that what he showed me was not a police department ID and that I had an Armed Guard License too. He then stated, with an even more aggressive demeanor, that I MUST show him my HCP. I again refused stating that he could either leave me be and allow me to sit in the waiting room, peacefully, or he could ask me to leave the property and I would comply, but he was not going to see my HCP.

    I then asked him point blank, "Do you wish me to leave?". He replied, "No, you can wait in the waiting room." So I returned to the waiting room and sat quietly, watching the TV. Another gentleman in the waiting room was watchng me, the look on his face was one of curiosity. A few other people in the waiting room never seemed to notice me, being too busy watching over their children.

    About 10-15 minutes later, the first Metro Police officer pulls up. Before he entered the building, the cuirous man in the waiting room looked at me. I smield at him and stated, "I guess they are hear for me." He chuckled a little and continued to watch more intently than anyone else in the waiting room.

    When the officer entered the building and approaged me his first words to me, "Give me your carry permit!" I smiled and asked, "Am I being detained?" Again, the officer said with authority, "Give me your carry permit!", and again I asked, "Am I being detained?". We went back and forth like this two more times before the officer stated, "Yes, you are being detained." This is when I retreived my wallet and handed him my carry permit while staing, "I am going to exersize my right to remain silent."

    This apparently infuriated the officer. He looked at me and tried to ask me a few questions. I never responded. He then disarmed me and unloaded my firearm and set everything down on a chair 2-3 places from me and near his person. He called in my info from my HCP and asked for someone to call him.

    During his phone call the officer stated that I refused to give him my permit and that I was carrying in a posted building. Shortly after his phone call, a second officer shows up. The officer with me exits the building, leaving my firearm and ammunition sitting 2-3 chairs from me.

    I look at the man who was most curious (everyone else seemed to be trying to disappear in their seats) and said, "I'm apparently dangerous enough for him to disarm, but not dangerous enough to be left unattended with a firearm and ammunition." The got a laugh from the gentleman (and a couple others in the waiting room).

    This got the man to start asking me about what was going on and I started to give him a very minor lesson in protecting his rights. Others in the waiting room were starting to pay attention to what I was saying. I informed them about the most fundamental rights that we discuss on this board, right to remain silent, right to free from unreasonable search and seaizure, etc.

    When the police return to the building, I become silent again. The first officer retreives my firearm and then both officer go to the security office. I watch both officer talking to each other, the guard, and on phones. I continue to chat with the various people in the waiting room, answering the questions they ask of me. I'm the only non-minority present and those that choose to speak to me seem amazed that I'm not already in cuffs for "contempt of cop". The impression I got was that none of the people present had any trust in law enforcement and that I was showing them a way to deal with police on a much more level playing field. About this time, my girlfriend finishes her buisiness and gets the car keys from me to wait for me to finish.

    A third officer shows up and joins the first two after about another 10 minutes. They all chat for a while before the third officer approaches me as asked me to step outside. He is polite and introduces himself as a sergeant. I reiterate to him that I'm still exersizing my right to remain silent. He aknowledges that I have that right.

    Once outside, I recive the obligitory "co-operation" lecture, anti-open carry lecture, and "We All Support the 2A" lecture. I then break my silence to ask, "Am I free to leave?". The sergeant informs me that I am. My firearm and ammunition is returned. I holster my firearm (rack still locked back) and load the magazine. This gets a look of alarm and anger from the initial officer who contacted me, the other two are not bothered in any way. While my firearm is still holstered, I release the locking mechanism and chamber a round and walk to my car and drive off.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Please Note: The senario was posted here by Moderator QKShooter since we would really rather that you not link to a page on another Internet forum. If you don't want it hanging around everywhere on the web then shoot me a Private Mail in a week or so & I'll delete it from this thread.


  2. #2
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    I'd have taken you to jail.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  3. #3
    Member Array Glock30Owner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I'd have taken you to jail.
    On what charge? Here is a nice link for you to find one at your leisure.

  4. #4
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    I'm not so inclined as to go digging through all the Tennessee code on gun laws. I could care less what Tennessee says unless I'm going to be visiting or passing through.

    However, when the police officer arrived, if you have a permit and the police officer demanded you show it, I would have arrested you for refusing. You seem to be under the impression that you only have to show a police officer your permit if you are being detained or arrested.

    Missouri is an open carry state too, although I never do. We are not required to inform LEO we are carrying unless asked. If they do ask to see your permit, we are required to show it. It is not contingent upon being under arrest or being detained.

    I realize you were open carrying legally, however you do have a ccw permit and a police officer asked to see it. You refused. Right off the bat, that does not make for a good civil encounter with the police.

    You realize of course, you probably could have avoided the entire situation by showing the initial security guard. Yeah, I know you DON"T HAVE TO but you were itching for a confrontation. And that's fine. If that's your bag, who am I to object.

    For me, I choose to expend energy fighting other battles.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    I tend to de-escalate situations. Tends to show people that, as a gun owner and carrier, I am a reasonable and rational person.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    I tend to de-escalate situations. Tends to show people that, as a gun owner and carrier, I am a reasonable and rational person.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  7. #7
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Causing a scene like that is more likely to invite trouble. I know you want to make a statement but there comes a point where you could say the wrong thing or tick off the wrong LEO. You end up sitting in a holding cell scratching your head wondering what just happened.

    IMO C.A.N.T (carry always never tell)
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  8. #8
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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    I tend to de-escalate situations. Tends to show people that, as a gun owner and carrier, I am a reasonable and rational person.
    No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms. -- Thomas Jefferson

  9. #9
    Member Array Glock30Owner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    However, when the police officer arrived, if you have a permit and the police officer demanded you show it, I would have arrested you for refusing. You seem to be under the impression that you only have to show a police officer your permit if you are being detained or arrested.

    Missouri is an open carry state too, although I never do. We are not required to inform LEO we are carrying unless asked. If they do ask to see your permit, we are required to show it. It is not contingent upon being under arrest or being detained.

    I realize you were open carrying legally, however you do have a ccw permit and a police officer asked to see it. You refused. Right off the bat, that does not make for a good civil encounter with the police.

    You realize of course, you probably could have avoided the entire situation by showing the initial security guard. Yeah, I know you DON"T HAVE TO but you were itching for a confrontation. And that's fine. If that's your bag, who am I to object.
    I'm sorry, but Terry v Ohio makes it clear that I do not have to even acknowledge the existance, let alone speak with, a police officer if the contact is consensual. I was just making sure that the officer's recording device had a record that I was in fact being detained. I never refused the officer anything. I just never say "how high" when officers tell me to jump.

  10. #10
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock30Owner View Post
    I'm sorry, but Terry v Ohio makes it clear that I do not have to even acknowledge the existance, let alone speak with, a police officer if the contact is consensual. I was just making sure that the officer's recording device had a record that I was in fact being detained. I never refused the officer anything. I just never say "how high" when officers tell me to jump.
    apples and oranges. You weren't randomly stopped. Obviously the police where called on you so they where investigating if a crime was committed. That alone was enough reasonable suspicion for them to detain you.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  11. #11
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Sounds like someone else muddying the waters and making gun owners look stupid. That's just what we need.

    Hindsight is always a better view, but it could have been handled differently. Think about it. We all love our rights and have a passion for them, but sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

  12. #12
    Member Array Glock30Owner's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by razor02097 View Post
    apples and oranges. You weren't randomly stopped. Obviously the police where called on you so they where investigating if a crime was committed. That alone was enough reasonable suspicion for them to detain you.
    Pray tell (using the link above) what crime was in progress when the police arrived?

  13. #13
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    If you shake the tree enough and the pigeons fly away. Shake the tree too hard and the tree falls down...
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  14. #14
    Distinguished Member Array razor02097's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock30Owner View Post
    Pray tell (using the link above) what crime was in progress when the police arrived?
    Please read again. They where likely investigating a MWG call to see if a crime was committed.
    There is something about firing 4,200 thirty millimeter rounds/min that makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.

  15. #15
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    If the officer was called on you by the security guard, I don't believe what happened to you constitutes a Terry Stop and thus you don't get afforded that same protection.

    But since I'm neither an attorney or a peace officer, I'm willing to stand corrected regarding Terry Stops.

    Also, in my state, any officer who engages you regarding any official business and asks if you are carrying a weapon, we are required by statute to inform him that we are and produce our permit if asked to do so. That is part of the ccw statute. Terry does not come into play in that regard.

    Obviously, if I was not a ccw permit holder, I would not be required to inform him in which Terry would then apply and he would have to satisfy the Terry provision in order to have reason to search me.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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