Okay folks...

Okay folks...

This is a discussion on Okay folks... within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have been watching with increasing concern various Posts being put on here concerning Open Carrying and the LEOs that respond to the MWAG call ...

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Thread: Okay folks...

  1. #1
    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    Okay folks...

    I have been watching with increasing concern various Posts being put on here concerning Open Carrying and the LEOs that respond to the MWAG call or just stop to ask some questions.

    I will not get into a debate on the subject of the wisdom of OC, nor will I point out examples of individual posts that "irk" me.

    I just want to say that in many recent cases, there has been a decided air of "Watch this cop mess up my day by doing his job."

    I used to hate cops. I was a borderline anarchist in my youth and I got into quite a good deal of trouble for my stupidity and misdirected zeal. I still get an "adrenaline dump" sometimes when I encounter an LEO while Open Carrying. It's an old habit and I'm slowly breaking out of it, but I can now say with a clear conscience and a sober mind that the Police are there to do a crappy job with little to no thanks and for not much in the way of financial compensation.

    I now view LEOs with a hybrid of respect and commisseration. I feel for them and I'm sorry for my past actions and the current actions of the youth whose turn it is (in their mind) to "fight the Man".

    I guess it just makes me upset to see someone actively pushing the "legal" buttons with an LEO who is simply asking for ID. Or when they ask you a simple question like, "What's your name?", they get a half-baked diatribe on Civil Rights. Asking to see the weapon for identification purposes (there may have been a spate of gun-thefts in the area) gets them a discourse on Constitutional Law.

    It's really simple:

    Be polite.
    Show respect (it tends to get back to you).
    Comply with reasonable requests.
    Answer simple questions.
    Limit sarcasm and smart comments.

    You might be able to expand on that list of guidelines, but it really is pretty much that easy. You will even be surprised to find that you will be kept a shorter amount of time by cooperating with the Police. They have better things to do than play 50 questions with you, and if they do start asking a lot of pointed questions about specifics, they might be investigating a crime. It's their job. Unless they are really telegraphing the idea that you are a suspect, you should assist them in clearing your name as quickly as possible by helping them with answers. Now, I am not a lawyer (but I've seen one on TV), and I know many people advise not ever talking to the Police without competant legal assistance present, but I guess I'm just not that hard up for excitement.

    Incidentally, do you think that we CCDWers are the only ones who view these videos?

    Do you think that Police the Nation over don't review these and analyze them for what went right/wrong?

    Do you think that it might bring about a more abrasive reaction from an LEO who stops me while I'm OCing at the local Kroger's for my dinner?

    For the most part, I go about my OC day unmolested, but I really don't need an encounter from an LEO who has seen one of these over-the-top, I-wonder-if-it-was-set-up-to-get-a-big-police-reaction-that-will-look-great-posted-on-the-internet videos and got understandably upset by the shifty, opaque, and divergent answers they get to simple questions.

    I don't want to be painted by that brush. I'm not them. I answer questions. I assist investigations. I also Open Carry from time to time.

    Please. Stop. Trying. To. Entrap. The. Police.

    Here's an idea:

    If you get stopped for OC, comply with everything they ask within reason (Statement of name and address with presentation of ID/CCDW card is reasonable; dancing the Hokey Pokey with your underwear on your head is not). If you have a problem with your treatment, call the local Police Chief and address the issue with them. Or you could try the Attorney General's Office. Or the State Ombudsman (they are REALLY good for getting things done as I found out...). Record the stop if you must, but posting it online and claiming Constitutional Duress for a couple of standard questions is absurd.

    Okay, I'm done putting on my asbestos suit now and I stand ready for the flames, but I just wanted to say what I felt.

    You may not think of the Police as your friends, but they provide an absolutely necessary service that should garner them some more respect.

    P.S. Oh, and um...keep it on the Delta Lima, but rumor has it that a few of the posters on this very website are *looks over shoulder* Cops!!!

    Just so you know.
    Last edited by EvilMonk; December 23rd, 2010 at 07:00 AM. Reason: Grammar and punctuation
    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Donít mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

    Convenire Volui Spectatus


  2. #2
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    You'll get no flaming from me. LEO's have a tough and thankless job. 99.9% do it in an outstanding manner. Just like in any line of work, there is always that 1 bad apple.

    Just like we don't want to be judged as a group by the actions of 1 "cowboy" with a permit, we shouldn't judge them by the actions of 1.
    Freedom doesn't come free. It is bought and paid for by the lives and blood of our men and women in uniform.

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  3. #3
    Senior Member Array EvilMonk's Avatar
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    "Just like we don't want to be judged as a group by the actions of 1 "cowboy" with a permit, we shouldn't judge them by the actions of 1." ~ archer51



    Yup.
    That which does not kill us leaves us broken and bleeding...

    Donít mess with the guy who can barely stand up. His remaining options for self-defense don't include your survival.

    Convenire Volui Spectatus

  4. #4
    Senior Member Array bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by archer51 View Post
    You'll get no flaming from me. LEO's have a tough and thankless job. 99.9% do it in an outstanding manner. Just like in any line of work, there is always that 1 bad apple.

    Just like we don't want to be judged as a group by the actions of 1 "cowboy" with a permit, we shouldn't judge them by the actions of 1.
    If LEO's dont appreciate that they have a thankless job, then they should move on and find a job that is more rewarding. It is unbelievable to think that OC's are the thorn in their sides to the extent that people think. How much time do they deal with drunks? Maybe we should outlaw alcohol also and go back to prohibition? It would be my opioion, maybe incorrectly, that LEO's probably deal with drunks/ domestic disputes, etc in a 99/1 ratio to peoople that OC. Here in NYS, there is no tell an officer i have a gun concealed law, but our Judge here in Broome county wants us to inform all police that we encounter that we are carrying as a curtosy... no problem here, but if people are following the law in Michigan or Cali, then let them do as they please... its what makes our great country truly free... exercising your rights legally! Bunker

  5. #5
    VIP Member Array BugDude's Avatar
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    In all of my encounters with LEO over the years (regardless of carrying or not), I have found it most effective to treat them with the understanding that they are doing their job and I try to make it easy for them to do so with my particular encounter. I know how I handle things at work when people understand that I'm just trying to do my job and I also know how I react when I'm getting hassled for doing it too.

    The last time I was pulled over (many moons ago), I just said, "Yep, I did x. I'm not going to BS you, you're just doing your job and I'm going to make it easy for you. I'm sure you get enough BS from the college students in this town." He was so surprised and appreciative of my response, he cut me a huge break. Go figure, don't antagonize them and they're pretty cool. Just like most folks.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Array bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BugDude View Post
    In all of my encounters with LEO over the years (regardless of carrying or not), I have found it most effective to treat them with the understanding that they are doing their job and I try to make it easy for them to do so with my particular encounter. I know how I handle things at work when people understand that I'm just trying to do my job and I also know how I react when I'm getting hassled for doing it too.

    The last time I was pulled over (many moons ago), I just said, "Yep, I did x. I'm not going to BS you, you're just doing your job and I'm going to make it easy for you. I'm sure you get enough BS from the college students in this town." He was so surprised and appreciative of my response, he cut me a huge break. Go figure, don't antagonize them and they're pretty cool. Just like most folks.
    exercising your legal rights is not antagonizing police officers...Breaking the law is a different story. Bunker

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    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    You know, I've heard that as a rule in general, you always get back what you give out. Also, you should treat others the way you would want to be treated. Here's another one: What goes around comes around.
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    Distinguished Member Array MinistrMalic's Avatar
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    Monk, I am willing to bet $20 you just read the same thread I did (and posted on). You've echoed my sentiments (except the anarchist in early life part ). Just be polite. Every cop I have ever met is just a decent human being with a crappy job who risks their life every day. They can't tell the vigilante from the normal 2A nut, so they have to be cautious. And every encounter they have with Joe "Am I Being Detained" Blowhard just makes them more wary of normal people who carry. So be part of the solution not the problem. Be polite and respectful.
    "...whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one." (Luke 22:36)
    Christianity and Self Defense from a Biblical Perspective

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array bunker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tkruf View Post
    You know, I've heard that as a rule in general, you always get back what you give out. Also, you should treat others the way you would want to be treated. Here's another one: What goes around comes around.
    You forgot sticks and stones bunker

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    VIP Member Array joker1's Avatar
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    Cinch up your asbestos suit EvilMonk, much flames of appreciation for the common sense (well should be anyway) spewing from your pie-hole. Unfortunately in our you tube lovin' society everyone is trying to outdue the last idiot with something even more assinine. I shocked my MIL one time with how respectful I was to a state trooper who pulled me over. My BIL is a deputy and even before that I had respect for the badge.
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    'Concur Evilmonk. I think a lot of this can be tied back to the individual, not the event or circumstance. Example:

    Obnoxious person + alchohol = Jerk drunk
    Obnoxious person + firearm = Jerk OC/CC
    Obnoxious person + badge = Jerk cop
    Obnoxious person + motorcycle = Jerk motorcyclist
    etc... (see the pattern?)

    However, of the examples listed above, I will admit that I'm am biased to give a lot more latitude toward the jerk cop that's probably having a bad day. I've worked closely enough with these guys to know that I'd crack like an egg in the work environment that these guys thrive in. Things continue to get tougher for LEOs, as our society becomes more politically correct. I am concerned that the day will come when most good LEO's decide that providing for their families is better served in other occupations, and all we'll have left are the Judge Dredd wanna-be's.
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    Senior Member Array CowboyColby's Avatar
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    Whats being a cowboy have to do with it? I've been one all my life and haven't shot the lights out in town yet. LOL

  13. #13
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    Agree with most of what you are saying. Respectfully disagree with some.
    We're all in favor of reducing violent crime. It's just that pro-gunners have a method that is proven effective. Anti-gunners don't.
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    Flame On: Your post was long: Flame Off

    OK, now that I have flamed you (I hope your asbestos suit protected you well enough) I want to say that I agree with you 110%. There is nothing more irritating to me than seeing posts and posted video from those who are blatantly trying to instigate a confrontation with LEO's.

    Yes, we have our rights, and we should not willing give them up, but there is no “good” reason to antagonize a LEO who is just doing his/her job. If you think that the LEO is “out of line”, then the appropriate response is to report it to the Police Chief later, along with any video or voice recordings that you may have. Being confrontational without cause will do nothing but reinforce the perception that us “gun nuts” are unreasonable and should not be allowed to carry.

    Just my opinion, but I think it would go a lot further with LEO's for us to work with them rather than against them.

  15. #15
    kpw
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    Quote Originally Posted by Coder View Post
    Agree with most of what you are saying. Respectfully disagree with some.
    Pretty much the same here. I comply with what I'm comfortable complying with, within the boundries of the law. Requests that I'm not comfortable with, nope. That could get me labeled as a jerk in some places but I wouldn't lose sleep over it.
    "In a republic this rule ought to be observed: that the majority should not have the predominant power." -
    -- Marcus Tullius Cicero

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