The Best Defense TV show Open Carry confrontation scenario - Page 2

The Best Defense TV show Open Carry confrontation scenario

This is a discussion on The Best Defense TV show Open Carry confrontation scenario within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TN_Mike I am not a read big fan of The Best Defense. It doesn't do a real good job of putting out ...

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Thread: The Best Defense TV show Open Carry confrontation scenario

  1. #16
    Member Array Joey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TN_Mike View Post
    I am not a read big fan of The Best Defense. It doesn't do a real good job of putting out truthful info a lot of the time, as you found out on the open carry episode Orange. I don't watch it very often. I much prefer Personal Defense TV.
    I agree 100%. I have been disappointed with some of the episodes of the best defense.
    "The belief in a supernatural source of evil is not necessary.
    Men alone are quite capable of every wickedness."

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  2. #17
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Given the limits of time I'm guessing they have to cover the fundamentals of most issues that the seasoned individuals on this forum are already familiar with.

    With respect to the clip, I think it made the point for those unfamiliar with open carry that if you live in or move to a state that allows it, while it may be your right to open carry in public, if questioned by law enforcement that is not the time or place to debate your right to carry. And while it may be obvious to many of us, making it clear that you should NEVER attempt to draw or handle the firearm during this type of encounter unless the officer instructs you to do so is a point that in the context of the discussion was an important point to be made.

    I didn't see anything strange or over the top about the presentation.
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  3. #18
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    As held up by ruling in the Supreme Court a person does have to identify them self to law enforcement, as for the singular sake of identification. Such as when walking on a street not operating a motorized vehicle on public roads or some other such not a civil right and state permitted allowed act. So yeah dude was in fact acting unlawfully when he refused to provide his lic./permit by the fact that he was actively being asked to identify himself by law enforcement.
    One point of clarification...

    This person was lawfully open carrying which does not require a license or permit, and the fact that he was doing something lawful cannot by itself be construed a suspicious acting requiring an individual to identify themself.
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  4. #19
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    One point of clarification...

    This person was lawfully open carrying which does not require a license or permit, and the fact that he was doing something lawful cannot by itself be construed a suspicious acting requiring an individual to identify themself.
    We do not know that.

    The scenario as shown made no mention at all toward what the state or local laws might have been.
    Not all states that allow OC do so without requirement of a lic./permit, even as the action of doing so might be lawful.
    Further not all states that have OC on the books, or do not disallow as much bys statute, do actually allow such action and would not deem the action to be unlawful.

    For example my own state of residence; MA.
    Open carry here is not unlawful.
    But functionally real world try to open carry a gun here. You gonna get stopped, questioned, your LTC permit requested by law enforcement and you'll very likely be arrested not for open carry but rather disturbing the peace, assault (as to place others in fear) AND have your LTC revoked immediately as well. But yeah, you didn't do anything unlawful...technically.

    Another example; MD.
    According to the OpenCarry.org site they list such action as being lawful; http://www.opencarry.org/opencarry.html
    Laughable. Ask anyone who actually has or does in live in MD as over say the last 40 yrs. (!), that no such opportunity will not result in a LEO stop and discussion.

    One could continue as across the nation, as based alone on reports and threads of same here at DC.com in this specific sub-area.

    The Best Defense episode was not preaching for nor against open carry.
    What they offered were three potential, and common, scenarios as to show how one might respond and the predictable results there from.

    Was this scenario person carrying lawfully. Maybe.
    For all we know he might have been on vacation sight seeing & picture taking on Main Street, in Hagerstown, MD. : |

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    We do not know that.

    The scenario as shown made no mention at all toward what the state or local laws might have been.
    Not all states that allow OC do so without requirement of a lic./permit, even as the action of doing so might be lawful.
    Further not all states that have OC on the books, or do not disallow as much bys statute, do actually allow such action and would not deem the action to be unlawful.

    For example my own state of residence; MA.
    Open carry here is not unlawful.
    But functionally real world try to open carry a gun here. You gonna get stopped, questioned, your LTC permit requested by law enforcement and you'll very likely be arrested not for open carry but rather disturbing the peace, assault (as to place others in fear) AND have your LTC revoked immediately as well. But yeah, you didn't do anything unlawful...technically.

    Another example; MD.
    According to the OpenCarry.org site they list such action as being lawful; http://www.opencarry.org/opencarry.html
    Laughable. Ask anyone who actually has or does in live in MD as over say the last 40 yrs. (!), that no such opportunity will not result in a LEO stop and discussion.

    One could continue as across the nation, as based alone on reports and threads of same here at DC.com in this specific sub-area.

    The Best Defense episode was not preaching for nor against open carry.
    What they offered were three potential, and common, scenarios as to show how one might respond and the predictable results there from.

    Was this scenario person carrying lawfully. Maybe.
    For all we know he might have been on vacation sight seeing & picture taking on Main Street, in Hagerstown, MD. : |

    - Janq
    Jang

    I was just trying to clarify that the requirement to produce identification isn't an automatic. As referenced in the article you linked the requirement is based on the individual having done something suspicious. In the context of a discussion of OC the simple fact that you are OCing doesn't necessary require identification.

    Again, I wouldn't be one to argue this point with LE on the street while OCing BUT the according to the court ruling you are not required to identify yourself under all circumstances and that would included OCing where it is legal and no license or permit is required.
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  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    Jang

    I was just trying to clarify that the requirement to produce identification isn't an automatic....
    Oh, I clearly lost ya on that.

    Yes of course not...If Joe Blow is walking along the street not otherwise doing anything that is either unlawful OR would otherwise result in an allowed/lawful Terry Stop (which a call of 'MWAG' would) then yes of course there is no requirement to identify ones self.
    But then that isn't what happened in either the show or the case as referenced in the article.

    In the show as in totality of the situational scenario presented; The OC person was reported as MWAG by a concerned and clearly shown alarmed citizen via 911.
    The OC person was not just walking along the street and approached by LEOs for no direct reason.
    When the LEOs contacted the OC person the primary stated in so many words they had received a call of MWAG and were responding to that call when they saw him there standing with a gun at his side. To that end the contact is righteous and lawful, as is there attempt to dialog with the person.

    It's s if folks watched the show as parsed rather than seeing the scenario as presented in it's entirety (??).

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    I'm not a lawyer but a report of MWAG in an state where OC is legal and where a license or permit is NOT required cannot of itself be construed as suspicious behavior subject to be asked to produce ID. In that case the report of MWAG is a none starter for being approached by law enforcement. An exception would be OC of an unloaded firearm but the onus is just to allow LE to inspect the firearm to insure it is unload with no requirement to identify yourself.
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  8. #23
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Again, the show made no statement at all toward what the specific laws might be in the imaginary scenario state...Aside in that the officer confirmed that open carry was lawful to some degree, and that he demanded to see specifically his gun permit which implies as much is required in Imaginaria.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Again, the show made no statement at all toward what the specific laws might be in the imaginary scenario state...Aside in that the officer confirmed that open carry was lawful to some degree, and that he demanded to see specifically his gun permit which implies as much is required in Imaginaria.

    - Janq
    I think we're basically on the same page.

    Having said that it is easy to walk away from watching this video believing you have to have a license or permit to OC. That is not the case. You could also walk away from viewing this video believing that if you OC you are required to show ID. That is not the case. You could also walk away from viewing this video believing that OCing = suspicious behavior. That is also not the case.

    My main point is know your state laws and the laws of your local jurisdiction, AND don't abrogate your rights or take the usurpation of your rights lightly.
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  10. #25
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed, which I'd also stated prior.
    Folk gotta know the laws and _bylaws_ of their own given area where they might stand; Be it home or some place where they are Joe Sight-See taking pictures with a stroll along Main Street.

    This dude could have been any one of your three possibilities, and still at the end of his day he winds up either shot or arrested for being a moron.
    So lesson to be learned; Don't be a moron...Be you carrying open or concealed.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Oh, I clearly lost ya on that.

    Yes of course not...If Joe Blow is walking along the street not otherwise doing anything that is either unlawful OR would otherwise result in an allowed/lawful Terry Stop (which a call of 'MWAG' would) then yes of course there is no requirement to identify ones self.
    There is no firearms exemption for Terry. SCOTUS had a chance to make one and they ruled not to.

    JL v Florida

    Held: An anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not, without more, sufficient to justify a police officer's stop and frisk of that person. An officer, for the protection of himself and others, may conduct a carefully limited search for weapons in the outer clothing of persons engaged in unusual conduct where, inter alia, the officer reasonably concludes in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons in question may be armed and presently dangerous. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 30. Here, the officers' suspicion that J. L. was carrying a weapon arose not from their own observations but solely from a call made from an unknown location by an unknown caller. The tip lacked sufficient indicia of reliability to provide reasonable suspicion to make a Terry stop: It provided no predictive information and therefore left the police without means to test the informant's knowledge or credibility.

    This Court also declines to adopt the argument that the standard Terry analysis should be modified to license a "firearm exception," under which a tip alleging an illegal gun would justify a stop and frisk even if the accusation would fail standard pre-search reliability testing.

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/htm...9_0266_ZS.html

    Now, the issue for OC is that JL was CC. So how does this play out for someone lawfully OC'ing? Can't say with complete certainty, but SCOTU is clearly not saying a firearm is grounds for a Terry stop without the officer observing other suspicious activity. Most courts seem to hold that a moderate detainment to investigate is not worthy of their time. But when LEO's escalate to longer detainments or arrests for nothing but OC and not producing ID, they tend to pay dearly for it. YMMV.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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  12. #27
    Senior Member Array rachilders's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    Given the limits of time I'm guessing they have to cover the fundamentals of most issues that the seasoned individuals on this forum are already familiar with.

    With respect to the clip, I think it made the point for those unfamiliar with open carry that if you live in or move to a state that allows it, while it may be your right to open carry in public, if questioned by law enforcement that is not the time or place to debate your right to carry. And while it may be obvious to many of us, making it clear that you should NEVER attempt to draw or handle the firearm during this type of encounter unless the officer instructs you to do so is a point that in the context of the discussion was an important point to be made.
    I didn't see anything strange or over the top about the presentation.
    +1

    The point of the whole episode seems to be there is a time to give and a time to take. Unless you are willing to pay the consequences for your actions simply to prove a point, it's often better to take a step back, get a grip on our macho pride and simply follow the directions given by the authority figure. It's reminds me of those people who argue with cops over a traffic stop when the LEO says you didn't come to a complete stop at a stop sign and you say you did. Suck it up, say you're sorry, you thought you'd came to a complete stop and it won't happen again. Unless you were driving recklessly, MOST of the time you'll simply get a warning.
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  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    CJ,

    Your post with copy supports exactly what I've been saying and said, as specifically related to the conditions of this shows scenario.

    ...An officer, for the protection of himself and others, may conduct a carefully limited search for weapons in the outer clothing of persons engaged in unusual conduct where, inter alia, the officer reasonably concludes in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons in question may be armed and presently dangerous. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 30.
    In the shows scenario the police were called not with a tip but an actual statement of man with a gun.
    The police arrive and he is clearly standing there as man with a gun; No frisk component is required and any person with functioning eyes can see that the man is indeed carrying a gun.
    By that it is then allowable per a Terry Stop to further question him, as supported by your quote.

    Did you guys actually watch this specific episode?

    This is not a generic discussion on Open Carry.
    It is pointedly specific to a scenario _visually_ demonstrated on a television show where very specific conditions were stated and demonstrated.

    Watch the _actual_ episode, not the parsed video clip shown at the OP which DOES NOT show the entirety of the episode and fully deletes the conditions that led up to the person being contacted by the police.
    That clip is just that a clip showing only a few seconds of what was approx. 10 minutes of TV show actual as done in three parts.

    Watch the episode actual, and THEN come back to make comment toward position by actually knowing the totality of what was depicted.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    Agreed VERY much so RAChilders.
    Your statement makes it plainly obvious that you actually watched the episode, and are not just going off of the OPs five second very much parsed clip.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  14. #29
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    CJ,

    Your post with copy supports exactly what I've been saying and said, as specifically related to the conditions of this shows scenario.



    In the shows scenario the police were called not with a tip but an actual statement of man with a gun.
    The police arrive and he is clearly standing there as man with a gun; No frisk component is required and any person with functioning eyes can see that the man is indeed carrying a gun.
    By that it is then allowable per a Terry Stop to further question him, as supported by your quote.

    Did you guys actually watch this specific episode?

    This is not a generic discussion on Open Carry.
    It is pointedly specific to a scenario _visually_ demonstrated on a television show where very specific conditions were stated and demonstrated.

    Watch the _actual_ episode, not the parsed video clip shown at the OP which DOES NOT show the entirety of the episode and fully deletes the conditions that led up to the person being contacted by the police.
    That clip is just that a clip showing only a few seconds of what was approx. 10 minutes of TV show actual as done in three parts.

    Watch the episode actual, and THEN come back to make comment toward position by actually knowing the totality of what was depicted.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    Agreed VERY much so RAChilders.
    Your statement makes it plainly obvious that you actually watched the episode, and are not just going off of the OPs five second very much parsed clip.
    I think you are overstating the decision referenced beyond what it actually says.

    There was no need to search the individual as a matter of officer safety AND in a state where OC is legal without a license or permit simply carrying a firearm openly is NOT justification for a further search or demand of ID.

    Also, the video clip referenced a call about a man with a gun. There is no indication in the video clip that the individual that made the call identified them self or if it was an anonymous tip.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    CJ,

    Your post with copy supports exactly what I've been saying and said, as specifically related to the conditions of this shows scenario.



    In the shows scenario the police were called not with a tip but an actual statement of man with a gun.
    The police arrive and he is clearly standing there as man with a gun; No frisk component is required and any person with functioning eyes can see that the man is indeed carrying a gun.
    By that it is then allowable per a Terry Stop to further question him, as supported by your quote.
    My concern is really not with the show. It's with the idea that stopping someone carrying a firearm where and how it is legally allowed is admissible as a Terry stop. It's probably completely SOP in some areas. But lot's of things that are not cut and dried legal issues are SOP in some areas.

    Do we now stop someone driving a car to ask for his license if he is doing nothing else wrong? Folks on here get wound up about DL checkpoints, and I don't like them either. Stopping someone who is carrying a gun in a lawful manner is not far from that idea. My entire point is that there is no, and has never been, a firearm exception to Terry. MWAG alone should not be RAS or PC for detainment if it's legal to do. My point is, unless the LEO sees or suspects criminal activity is afoot, the most he can do is observe or try a consensual interview. At least those are my thought's on it.
    MKEgal likes this.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

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