The Best Defense TV show Open Carry confrontation scenario

This is a discussion on The Best Defense TV show Open Carry confrontation scenario within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by 2edgesword I think you are overstating the decision referenced beyond what it actually says. There was no need to search the individual ...

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Thread: The Best Defense TV show Open Carry confrontation scenario

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 2edgesword View Post
    I think you are overstating the decision referenced beyond what it actually says.

    There was no need to search the individual as a matter of officer safety AND in a state where OC is legal without a license or permit simply carrying a firearm openly is NOT justification for a further search or demand of ID.

    Also, the video clip referenced a call about a man with a gun. There is no indication in the video clip that the individual that made the call identified them self or if it was an anonymous tip.
    Once more, the video clip DOES NOT shot the entirety of the episode as it actually was...It's just a video clip.
    I've stated now numerous times what occurred on the show actual.

    As to searching, the officers made a search visually...The guy is clearly wearing a gun.
    No further search of relevance is necessary.
    As well again _IF_ "...in a state where OC is legal without a license or permit..." whihc clearly IF this were such a state per the scenario then there would have been no response by the officers as they had responded to the man with a gun as plainly exposed carried openly.

    Please....Watch the episode first, and disregard this clip.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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  3. #32
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    My concern is really not with the show. It's with the idea that stopping someone carrying a firearm where and how it is legally allowed is admissible as a Terry stop. It's probably completely SOP in some areas. But...
    And that is exactly what the problem is with this thread as it had evolved, prior to my first post, and how it continues to go.

    The OP references in specific to the show NOT to general life nor as in general overall toward attitudes of open carry.
    The show provided a specific, not broad, scenario driven encounter which was multi-faceted, not flat, relating to the view of a citizen open carrying not just from one angle but actually three:

    1. That of a concerned citizen; Who notified authorities which was not improper toward a sighting of literally a 'Man with a gun'. The show literally shows the citizen calling and exactly what he states to 911.

    2. That of an otherwise lawfully acting citizen, who is a Man with an open carried as holstered gun; Who upon contact with police in three individual takes (NOT shown in the 5 sec. video clip) chooses to
    A) Be defensive, combative and stupid as he grabs his gun just before being shot down by LEOs
    [Show advises DO NOT DO THIS...To do so is gonna get you killed]
    B) Be argumentative and by that actively resistant, to ultimately be arrested, toward what is immediately per context a Terry Stop
    [Show advises DO NOT DO THIS...To do so is unwise]
    C) Be understanding of the fact that you are in fact an MWAG, as stated upon initial contact by the LEO, and to from there be assistive as in answering any questions toward the validity of allowance as per state laws AND local bylaws toward otherwise exercising ones civil right as a US citizen; Which by manner of practical application fact are and always have been in the USA....Infringed.
    [Show advises DO THIS...To do so will possibly be momentarilly annoying but in the end it will allow you to POSITIVELY represent not just yourself but ALL of the rest of us lawful carry civilians be we open or concealed as to both the LEOs (not all support us!) AND to the on watching citizenry who very likely are not aware of the details toward state laws and local bylaws as related to gun carry]

    3. That of two LEOs (primary does all the talking while secondary is silent as in active support of primary) responding to a concerned citizen toward a call of 'Man with a gun' having no additional information offered other than MWAG @ location.
    No additional information about state or local bylaws is provided as a preface and the LEOs do not contact the citizen in aggressive manner from the outset. They can CLEARLY see that the citizen is in fact a man with a gun which is why they selected him as opposed to any other Joe or Jane on Main Street in that moment, thus no additional 'search' beyond the visually obvious is necessary nor applicable/relevant.
    The rest is as detailed above in the way of follow on result.

    The rest of your concern and discussion goes off to areas that are NOT specific to the show and the scenario presented on the show, and thus are irrelevant.
    If the OP had made a post discussing Open Carry generically I'd likely have never made a peep...Notice I very rarely ever post in this area and have never posted a thread; That is not coincidental.
    I came in to add $0.02 toward what was a discussion of the show, and by that a specific scenario as presented within the show.

    Anything else is, off topic.

    - Janq

    P.S.
    To those who have not actually watched this shows episode, do yourself a favor and do so BEFORE leaping to a conclusion and taking a position on how something went and might should be toward what you have not otherwise actually seen.
    This clip provided in the OP is just that, a clip, as in the form of a _commercial_ toward what was a well developed multi faceted situational 'Choose Your Own Adventure' style scenario.
    You can't possibly take a position on this when you haven't actually seen anything but that clip. The clip shows NOTHING, but 5 seconds.
    Seriously.
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #33
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    An interesting, ironic as related to this thread and relevant posting made minutes ago by a LEO...Who is one of _US_:

    Disarming CCW holders from an officer's prospective.
    Today 03:46 AM
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...d.php?t=119872

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  5. #34
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    The show provided a specific, not broad, scenario driven encounter which was multi-faceted, not flat, relating to the view of a citizen open carrying not just from one angle but actually three:

    My point was, and has been, that the broad idea that MWAG always equals Terry stop is not supported by SCOTUS. It may be SOP, but there is little support for it with current SCOTUS case law that I have seen.

    Janq, if you had not made that broad statement, I would have stayed out of this one. Because I have not, and don't intend to watch it.

    "Yes of course not...If Joe Blow is walking along the street not otherwise doing anything that is either unlawful OR would otherwise result in an allowed/lawful Terry Stop (which a call of 'MWAG' would) then yes of course there is no requirement to identify ones self." Janq
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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  6. #35
    Senior Member Array 2edgesword's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    Once more, the video clip DOES NOT shot the entirety of the episode as it actually was...It's just a video clip.
    I've stated now numerous times what occurred on the show actual.

    As to searching, the officers made a search visually...The guy is clearly wearing a gun.
    No further search of relevance is necessary.
    As well again _IF_ "...in a state where OC is legal without a license or permit..." whihc clearly IF this were such a state per the scenario then there would have been no response by the officers as they had responded to the man with a gun as plainly exposed carried openly.

    Please....Watch the episode first, and disregard this clip.

    - Janq
    I didn't realize we were confined to discussing the contents of the video.

    My point, one not contradicted by the court decision referenced, is that in a state where OC is legal and does not require a license or permit a LEO is not justified in stopping to question you simple on the basis that you are OCing. Further, in a state where it is legal to OC without a license or permit, and absent any suspicious behavior, your are not required to identify yourself.
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  7. #36
    Distinguished Member Array orangevol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangevol View Post
    If you did not see this weeks show, here's a clip from their website...

    http://www.downrange.tv/blog/best-de...en-carry/8460/

    If a legally armed citizen, (open or concealed) wants to argue with the police, draw his weapon from the holster, and explain his carry rights...just be prepared to get shot! Can anyone, in their right mind, be so dumb?

    I have heard Michael Bain in previous episodes discourage "open carry" even stating his opinion that open carry allows the bad guy to "target" you and possibly rob you of your carry weapon. He has also given other discouraging reasons for keeping your weapon concealed. I was rather surprised when I saw this episode on open carry.
    Wow...has this thread evolved!!!

    My main point is bolded and underlined above.
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  8. #37
    VIP Member Array Thanis's Avatar
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    IMO, far from an over the top scene.

    People make many motions, from scared, to aggressive, to just nervous, when stopped by LE. I have witnessed people who OC place a hand on a firearm when others (non-LE) mention to them that they notice the OC. First hand I observed something as simple as "You can do that?" result in an OCer patting their gun/holster as they explained MI OC laws.

    The scene was a good basic situation, as even the experienced OC might get deluded into thinging OC is not a "big deal." Who cares if it is or is not a "big deal." Sometimes people focus to much on what they consider to be a "big deal" when the some weight should be placed on what others think.

    I'm not advocating OCers should not OC because what others think. Simply as with most opinions, some respect should be provided to those who are not like minded, and while you should not stop OCing, be aware of the motions beibng made while OCing....

    I only OC a few days a year, but when I do OC, I do slightly alter, for example, where I place my hands. The clip may have poor acting, but the issues addressed are fine.
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  9. #38
    Ex Member Array William Hill's Avatar
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    What a stupid video. Of course, drawing a gun on a cop will get you shot! Duh! This is just another anti-open carry statement. How many people here would draw their gun while being detained by police? Not me. I'm also not going to provide identification, or anything else, to officers responding to a MWAG call. I don't know how the law works in other states, but in PA, I'm under no obligation to identify myself to police, with a paper ID, or even verbally. Any officer who doesn't like it can pound sand, and any officer who decides to detain/arrest me better be prepared to face legal action.

  10. #39
    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    If a legally armed citizen, (open or concealed) wants to argue with the police, draw his weapon from the holster, and explain his carry rights...just be prepared to get shot! Can anyone, in their right mind, be so dumb?
    I know, right? There are always people that appear deprived of common sense but amongst the gun *carrying* community, I'd opine those numbers are so few and far in between to question the motivation of the show's producers. OTOH, I have always enjoyed Best Defense and have watched it pretty much from the pilot days but as said by others, I'm behind on DVR programs in queue. Can't really comment on the installment under discussion.

    So glad I moved from a gun control state to my current state of residence. The legal environment with respect to firearms and self-defense doesn't fit the majority of generic legal commentary that comes from the industry press.
    2nd Amendment: because personal violence never makes an appointment.
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  11. #40
    Senior Member Array Moga's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    An interesting, ironic as related to this thread and relevant posting made minutes ago by a LEO...Who is one of _US_:

    Disarming CCW holders from an officer's prospective.
    Today 03:46 AM
    Disarming CCW holders from an officer's prospective.

    - Janq
    The first few paragraphs in the thread written by "one of us" sounds so much like the crap I've been hearing for the past three years by gun control advocates in the Georgia Assembly trying to curtail where and when permitted citizens can carry its incredible. I won't even bother to rebut the assertions the writer made, especially since the OP has been locked, but its way off base. I can think of a half dozen states from memory that publishes their revocation rates and it's not anywhere near 1% in any of them. More like one-hundredth or one-thousandth of one percent would be closer. It's well established that permitted people have been life long stand-up citizens and continue to be long after they're licensed to carry a weapon. Why the writer is convinced otherwise when his sample contains so few data points is revealing IMO.

    I feel pretty safe in stating that gun toters tend to be very strong supporters of Law Enforcement. We're on the same side of the fight! Yet that support wanes when LE want to disarm lawful citizens just because they feel empowered do so. Writer has stated that it isn't his policy but it may be the policy of others in his department. Ouch! Thank goodness Georgia doesn't require disclosure. Unnecessarily handling a firearm causes more problems than it solves IMO, especially considering most cops are NOT firearms people. My sidearm is inactive and poses no threat to anyone as long as it remains in its holster where it belongs.
    2nd Amendment: because personal violence never makes an appointment.
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  12. #41
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chiefjason View Post
    There is no firearms exemption for Terry. SCOTUS had a chance to make one and they ruled not to.

    JL v Florida

    Held: An anonymous tip that a person is carrying a gun is not, without more, sufficient to justify a police officer's stop and frisk of that person. An officer, for the protection of himself and others, may conduct a carefully limited search for weapons in the outer clothing of persons engaged in unusual conduct where, inter alia, the officer reasonably concludes in light of his experience that criminal activity may be afoot and that the persons in question may be armed and presently dangerous. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 30. Here, the officers' suspicion that J. L. was carrying a weapon arose not from their own observations but solely from a call made from an unknown location by an unknown caller. The tip lacked sufficient indicia of reliability to provide reasonable suspicion to make a Terry stop: It provided no predictive information and therefore left the police without means to test the informant's knowledge or credibility.

    This Court also declines to adopt the argument that the standard Terry analysis should be modified to license a "firearm exception," under which a tip alleging an illegal gun would justify a stop and frisk even if the accusation would fail standard pre-search reliability testing.

    Florida v. J.L.
    That case dealt with the reliability of an informants tip, not firearms.

    Yes, a firearm was involved, but it was not the core issue of the case.

    It is an error to assume that every mention of a firearm in a case means the case is a firearms related issue.

  13. #42
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    I'm sure it's happened somewhere, sometime. But a million times it hasn't. Of all the people who OC, how many have had someone try to take the gun? The most probable time is when an LEO is wrestling some BG and the BG grabs for the gun. A case of some BG randomly grabbing a civilian's OC is a rarity.
    I believe there is a story in The Gun Digest of Concealed Carry by Massod Ayoob where he tells of a time he and a friend were open carrying and another person approched his friend and was acting as if he was going to do a gun grab, apparently as a joke. Ayoob stared the guy down to keep him from pulling the prank.

  14. #43
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    While I am not a proponent of OC I agree with your right to do so, HOWEVER I don't think it is a good idea for senior citizens to do so. Their ability to defend their weapon is suspect and that is why I choose to CC.
    There has been cases documented where a bad guy has taken an OC weapon.
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  15. #44
    VIP Member Array LongRider's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangevol View Post
    I have heard Michael Bain in previous episodes discourage "open carry" even stating his opinion that open carry allows the bad guy to "target" you and possibly rob you of your carry weapon. He has also given other discouraging reasons for keeping your weapon concealed. I was rather surprised when I saw this episode on open carry.
    Reminded me once again why we no longer have satellite or cable. Star Wars movies have a closer relationship to the truth and reality than TV

    Quote Originally Posted by IWLAFART View Post
    While I am not a proponent of OC I agree with your right to do so, HOWEVER I don't think it is a good idea for senior citizens to do so. Their ability to defend their weapon is suspect and that is why I choose to CC.
    There has been cases documented where a bad guy has taken an OC weapon.
    Can you please post one singe verifiable instance. We had a thread going for months here on DC in which no one was able to do so. So you will set a DC record if you can. If you can not find at least one verifiable provable link where a BG took an OC'd weapon from a law abiding civilian citizen, would you please consider not spreading anti self defense propaganda for them.
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  16. #45
    Member Array moby clarke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Janq View Post
    FYI; Show host Rob Pincus is a member of this site.

    I've been watching the show since the pilot and found that on the overall it's been pretty good and factual.
    I missed this OC item that you guys are remarking to as I'm a few episodes behind with rescue by TiVO.

    I'll try to watch it today/tonight...

    Edit:
    I just finished watching this episode...And it looks to be very much on point to my eye, and as based on _recent_ real world incidents that have made the news featured here at this site both in the open carry area (guy with carbine at mall) and at the GBU area such as the very well reported and here debated guy at Wal-Mart in NV who got shot due to non-compliance following a 911 call due to he carrying two guns and going on about he's got right to carry and is a "Green beret" as he destroyed store property and disturbed the peace.

    The subject of OC as an issue needs to be discussed...And is very much relevant.
    Take note of the entirety of the scenario as it was presented, not just the end result with LEO contact.
    Crazy, high strung and persons with self control issues have been covered by them in prior episodes as related to concealed carry, self defense and pretty much every other episode they have presented...It is their norm to include such examples among the whole and has been for like 3 seasons now. Not specific just to this singular subject.

    From what I've seen of this show their scenarios well reflect real world events...Which weekly if not daily we discuss here at DC.com.

    - Janq
    Please, the scenerio they showed is so outragous and silly as to render any credibility this show had moot. The bias against OC is obvious and their distain for anyone who would OC complete. Is it important to discuss OC? Sure, but only by those who can and will do so as adults with an open mind and no petty bias. The show and it's writers are obviously not able to have a rational discussion.

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