open-ish carry bill introduced in TX - Page 2

open-ish carry bill introduced in TX

This is a discussion on open-ish carry bill introduced in TX within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by mcp1810 If they don't have time to tweek it a bit before the session ends I would be ok with it passing ...

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Thread: open-ish carry bill introduced in TX

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    If they don't have time to tweek it a bit before the session ends I would be ok with it passing as is. But I would prefer they get it right now, as opposed to having come back and clean it up next session.
    Thank G-d they meet only every two years. But, that would be a long time to wait for them to tweak it after all the reciprocity agreements get messed up.

    I hope this one goes nowhere. Right track, wrong train.


  2. #17
    Distinguished Member Array ErnieNWillis's Avatar
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    I just hope they pass the dang bill. I get a little tired of having to dressing around my firearm and wearing clothes a size larger. Its too hot here in Texas.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by C9H13NO3 View Post
    After reading through all that, I agree with Hopyard. Current legislation says we MUST stay concealed. If you strike out that part, it only says we may carry a handgun. You'd have to add another peice to say concealed is OK.
    Only if another section of the law prohibits concealing a handgun and having a carry license isn't a defense.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcp1810 View Post
    I think part of the problem some folks are having with this the way it is written is that by taking "concealed" off the license it could cause issues with reciprocity. While LEO's in Texas should be expected to fully understand what the license covers, we can not make that assumption for other states. Should we expect a LEO in some other state we have reciprocity with to know that our "handgun license" allows us to carry as opposed to simply being something like an IL FOID card?
    This would also require a review and possible rewrite of all existing reciprocity agreements. If you get stopped by an anti-gun LEO in a state where the reciprocity agreement specifies a "Texas concealed handgun license" and you have a newly issued "Texas handgun license" how do you think that would play out?

    If they don't have time to tweek it a bit before the session ends I would be ok with it passing as is. But I would prefer they get it right now, as opposed to having come back and clean it up next session.
    Tennessee's license says "Handgun Carry Permit" and the 13 states that don't recognize them are: California, Connecticut, Hawaii, Illinois, Maine, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, New York, Oregon, Rhode Island, Washington, and Wisconsin. Texas doesn't have a reciprocity agreement with any of those states either.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by ErnieNWillis View Post
    I just hope they pass the dang bill. I get a little tired of having to dressing around my firearm and wearing clothes a size larger. Its too hot here in Texas.
    Never underestimate the ability of big city cops and DAs to contort the meaning of a law or just ignore the law. You will recall that several years back we had some changes to the car carry rules and Houston simply refused to acknowledge them, and the DA stated that they would continue to arrest anyone found with a gun in the car who didn't have a license. The point being that if the dang thing doesn't explicitly say "CONCEALED HANDGUN LICENSE" and there is any ambiguity in the law whatsoever, we all know precisely what will happen next. And then, we will have to wait for at least two years or more while things get sorted out in an appeals court or changed by a subsequent legislature--which is something that might never happen.

    I'm really afraid this one is a well intentioned attempt to get OC, but a very poorly crafted way of doing it which will bring us no end of additional aggravation.

    Anyway, the way our Texas legislature is going, they will probably de-fund the folks who process applications and cause a 3 year backlog.

  5. #20
    Senior Member Array sjones's Avatar
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    I'm with that one poster.It would be a lot easier not to have to dress around the gun or carry a smaller gun so it is concealed.You could just drop it in your holster and go. sj

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    I'm not gonna open carry,but I know a guy that in the past when sitting down in a restaurant had his gun exposed for a couple seconds,next thing he knew he was talking to cops,they told him that the management wanted him to disarm if he wanted to eat there,no 30.06 sign anywhere,he said no I'll go somewhere else.This would help people that during a moment of wardrobe failure wouldn't be on the fence as far as failing to conceal
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  7. #22
    Senior Member Array Grant48's Avatar
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    Another thing to consider... If Open Carry is passed, would 30.06 signs become enforceable against Open Carry? If so, how will that effect the number of establishments that choose to post 30.06 signage?

    If I were to guess, I'd say that if guns were more "visible", more places would be posted. As it is right now, 30.06 signage is fairly uncommon... Probably because "out of sight, out of mind".

  8. #23
    Distinguished Member Array P7fanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Never underestimate the ability of big city cops and DAs to contort the meaning of a law or just ignore the law. You will recall that several years back we had some changes to the car carry rules and Houston simply refused to acknowledge them, and the DA stated that they would continue to arrest anyone found with a gun in the car who didn't have a license. The point being that if the dang thing doesn't explicitly say "CONCEALED HANDGUN LICENSE" and there is any ambiguity in the law whatsoever, we all know precisely what will happen next. And then, we will have to wait for at least two years or more while things get sorted out in an appeals court or changed by a subsequent legislature--which is something that might never happen.

    I'm really afraid this one is a well intentioned attempt to get OC, but a very poorly crafted way of doing it which will bring us no end of additional aggravation.

    Anyway, the way our Texas legislature is going, they will probably de-fund the folks who process applications and cause a 3 year backlog.
    Agree with you here.

    Write a clear bill or there'll be continual problems and arrests by jurisdictions like Houston and probably even Austin. I wish they'd come through with an open carry...not that I'd utilize it much but it would be nice to be able to open carry say at festivals, celebrations or whatever. It'd be an extreme rarity for me.

    IMO, it's not wise to open carry as you'd lose what edge you have should there be a BG around intent on doing a bad thing. You'd have a target on your back. The element of surprise would be lose at a time it may be needed most.
    "The price of freedom is eternal vigilance." -Thomas Jefferson

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  9. #24
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    So tired of this!!

    Quote Originally Posted by P7fanatic View Post
    Agree with you here.

    Write a clear bill or there'll be continual problems and arrests by jurisdictions like Houston and probably even Austin. I wish they'd come through with an open carry...not that I'd utilize it much but it would be nice to be able to open carry say at festivals, celebrations or whatever. It'd be an extreme rarity for me.

    IMO, it's not wise to open carry as you'd lose what edge you have should there be a BG around intent on doing a bad thing. You'd have a target on your back. The element of surprise would be lose at a time it may be needed most.
    I get so tired of the logic that says "if you OC, you will be the first one the bad guy will shoot before he does his dirty deed". Please, don't you understand that bad guys are basically lazy. If they had a strong work ethic, they wouldn't be committing crimes, they would have jobs like regular folks. They commit crimes to get a lot of money for very little effort. They look for crimes of opportunity, easy marks to knock over. This is the very reason that the house in the neighborhood that has deadbolts, security lights and system, dogs in the backyard, timers on the lights etc...these houses are viewed as too "hard" to break into when there is another down the street that is a lot easier. Bad guys look for the easy "score". In the OC situation, the bad guys are not going to target and shoot the 4 OC people in line at the convenience store just to get the $20.00 in the register. They will simple move on to an easier "score". OC is a deterrent!!! Someone has been watching too much hollywood bad guys on the tube. Remember, that isn't real life!!! John Stossel has interviewed convicts in prison, they don't worry about the cops, it is armed citizens that they fear, that is real life!!

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    This would in effect make licensed OC legal in Texas. Possibly the first step to allowing full OC by everyone that wishes, yet making CC require the permit still. Basically like TN has now.

    Will it pass, probably not, we will have to wait and see.

    These proposed changes were introduced by our state rep, he is newly elected so support for the bill may be weak, but I think it will depend on how he plays with others down in Austin.


    Here are some thought from Charles L. Cotton on the matter. TexasCHLforum.com • View topic - Licensed open-carry or unlicensed open-carry?

    It could possibly be a double edged sword for CHL. Currently there are only 2 or 3 places in our town that have 30.06 signs. That might change drastically.

    If you don't feel that a large increase in 30.06 signs would follow passage of open-carry, why did we see an epidemic of generic "no guns" signs between 1995 when CHL first passed and Sept. 1, 1997 when the then-new TPC §30.06 went into effect making the "Big Ugly Sign" necessary to bar CHL's? Please don't try to tell me the that 2.69% of Texans with their guns hidden "taught" 97.3% of Texans anything.

    It continues to amaze me how the most ardent of open-carry supporters want to point to other states while ignoring what actually happened in Texas. Experience is better than theory in predicting the future.

    Chas.

    [The 2.69% v. 97.3% are figures based upon population and CHL's in 2009.]
    I agree that what is referred to as constitutional carry is my ultimate goal. As I have said numerous times, my only concern about open-carry is the very real possibility, if not probability, that we will see a huge increase in 30.06 signs posted simply because businesses will not risk the wrath of 97% of the population. Otherwise, I'm not against open-carry.

    As you state, I believe we are making great progress toward constitutional carry. It was a huge victory to pass concealed-carry in 1995 and in almost every session since then, we've improved the law such that it furthers the rights of gun owners. In 2005, the first attempt at unlicensed car-carry was passed, but its "presumption of traveling" proved ineffective. So in 2007 we passed unlicensed car-carry and this too was a huge step toward greater recognition of the Second Amendment.

    Licensed open-carry is the next logical step. CHL has been around for sixteen years and it will be eighteen years when the 2013 Texas Legislative Session begins. We have had unlicensed car-carry for almost four years now and it will be almost six years when the 2013 Texas Legislative Session begins. This will provide an excellent argument against the "parade of horribles" we'll surely hear again. We heard it when passing the original CHL, we heard it when we passed SB501 removing governmental authority to use 30.06 to bar armed CHL's, we heard it when passing unlicensed car-carry, so we know it's coming with open-carry. There are three key components in a plan to pass open-carry. First, the groundwork must be done long before the 2013 legislative session begins. Secondly, the bill must be very short to avoid unnecessarily opening up sections of the Government Code and Penal Code to anti-gun amendments. (It can be drafted such that it is not necessary to strike the word "concealed" everywhere it appears in statute. Plus, any necessary clean-up can be done later.) The third element is dealing with the 30.06 issue effectively to protect CHL's.

    After we have had licensed open-carry for a while, we can push for unlicensed open-carry once again having a good track record on which to promote a bill. At that point, we will have had licensed concealed-carry, licensed open-carry, and unlicensed car-carry. Although we will still hear the "parade of horribles" as we always do, fewer people will be concerned because of years of positive experience with people carrying self-defense handguns.

    Educating the public and winning them to our side of the issues is indispensable and this is one of the three primary missions of the Texas Firearms Coalition. As soon as the legislative session is over, we are going to be doing much more with events all over the state. To answer the question I know someone is going to ask -- yes, we will be discussing open-carry in a positive light preparing the way for better public acceptance of the concept.


    Chas.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  11. #26
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    Confused

    Many appear (intentionally) confused about the bill. There may need to be some clarifications to the text, but basically, the existing rules of concealed carry are preserved…to add open carry. No one is exempt from acquiring a license (ie: training and background check) to qualify for the license.
    Does anyone think that we should all just strap on our guns and go for it? Personally, I have many friends (even relatives) that do not possess the stability or mental attitude to carry even a big rock. Ya think they need a gun on their hip?

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by pettusmike View Post
    Many appear (intentionally) confused about the bill. There may need to be some clarifications to the text, but basically, the existing rules of concealed carry are preserved…to add open carry. No one is exempt from acquiring a license (ie: training and background check) to qualify for the license.
    Does anyone think that we should all just strap on our guns and go for it? Personally, I have many friends (even relatives) that do not possess the stability or mental attitude to carry even a big rock. Ya think they need a gun on their hip?
    This whole issue could be readily fixed with a very brief and straight forward few sentences. Instead, the author showed that he just had some aid chicken scratch out stuff without really thinking about meaning, or whether or not the intent will be achieved. If the legislator wants open carry, all it takes is one sentence that says holders of CHLs may open carry in all places where they may lawfully carry concealed. Then add something like, the following sections are repealed, and delete the sections which forbid OC.

    I do agree though with those who say that one reason we see so few 30.06 signs is that out of sight out of mind mentality. As soon as we get OC, we'll see a lot more signs.

    As for Dukalmighty's post # 21, the guy he knew wasn't arrested because there was no intentional display. The owner was within his rights however to ask him to leave. Had the friend been more careful, he would have had an uneventful dinner and no cops would have been involved in a man with a gun call. I fully agree with those who say we'll see lots of signs go up very quickly if this bill goes through.

    We have a good deal here. We can carry almost anywhere. We don't need to worry about printing, and the merchants mostly don't concern themselves with us. I don't want the apple cart turned over, which it will be if we have OC.

    Maybe a compromise could be had, OC could be made legal except in the large metropolitan areas. E.g., OC legal where the population of the county is less than 150K. OC won't draw a blink of attention in these more rural areas. And IMO OC in a big city is asking for big trouble.

  13. #28
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    Texas should go to Constitutional Carry.

    Concealed or Open, it shouldn't matter. I have had a 180 degree turn around in my views, and think any license is a form of taxation, and an infringement on our Second Amendment rights.

    Biker

  14. #29
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    Hopyard,

    The problem I have with making a one sentence change in the laws and leaving "concealed" in the rest of the statutes is that would be confusing.

    Get out a CHL handbook and read the prohibited places, 46.035. It still lists hospitals, amusement parks, churches, governmental meetings, as prohibited places. Then you have to read further to find out that those places actually aren't prohibited. During class this gets to be confusing for some students, they are reading their book and it says something that isn't the case.

    When they amended the law, it would have been much better had they stricken those sections from the statutes. Then there would be no confusion. Those places would fall under the 30.06 if posted like anyplace else. They wouldn't have their own, these sections don't apply without effective notice under 30.06.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Hopyard,

    The problem I have with making a one sentence change in the laws and leaving "concealed" in the rest of the statutes is that would be confusing.
    .
    And what's proposed isn't confusing?

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