The Logic of 'Open Carry' and LEO's Attitude

This is a discussion on The Logic of 'Open Carry' and LEO's Attitude within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If you carry in Madison and are concerned about unfair treatment by MPD you should print this out and have it with you. Madison Police ...

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Thread: The Logic of 'Open Carry' and LEO's Attitude

  1. #91
    Member Array KeythL's Avatar
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    If you carry in Madison and are concerned about unfair treatment by MPD you should print this out and have it with you. Madison Police Fall Update. If your rights are violated, sue in Federal Court, site the Chief's and DA's public comments on the subject in your filings.

    Stay safe,
    Maine CCP
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    Wisconsin CCL

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  3. #92
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Sadly, no. I didn't expect anything different from this guy.

    I've said it before and I will continue to say it. If you knowingly go to the OPEN CARRY section of the site and post anti-open carry messages, you are simply outing yourself as a troll. Period.
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  4. #93
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redcrow View Post
    I'm a security guard and only have one problem with open carry. That one problem is the open carrier with the chip on their shoulder, with a attitude of "I dare you to say something" like they are waiting to blow up and cause a big scene just so they can teach us evil antigun people that they have the right to
    carry. This type does not help and I could actually see how this type would hurt
    the cause. Think about this...if a gun owner that is open carrying does blow up and cause a big scene the store is now more likely to post a "no weapons" sign
    just for spite and to "keep those crazy gun nuts from coming around here". I have met quite a few open carriers that are level headed and can articulate the issue. I have no problem with open carry, maybe its just me but I'm encountering this "chip on the shoulder" type more and more often.

    Frankly I'd be more concerned with an open carrier, or concealed for that matter, coming to help such as if the store is getting robbed. If a LEO or Security guard is involved in a shootout with an armed robber and all of a sudden shots are being fired from another direction you have to admit that there is going to be a chance that the LEO or Security turns and starts shooting in your direction. In a situation like this there is just no way to know that you are not another armed robber trying to save his buddy. When you add in the fear, confusion of the situation, and the adrenaline rush it becomes more likely.
    I would much rather see you guys and gals helping to get the innocent bystanders out of the way.

    Lastly, anyone that doesn't think OC is a good idea cause it shows your hand needs to take a look at what people carry on their belts. LEOs, Security, and those of us that are around firearms get ingrained to notice a gun. But the truth is that people are so self centered now-a-days that no one notices. Its kinda the same as the concealed carry vests, when one of us gun enthusiasts notices someone wearing one of those vests we instantly assume he is packing. When someone that is a non-enthusiast just looks at the vest and thinks "wow that is tacky" but doesn't assume he is carrying a gun. A non-enthusiast sees a bulge on the belt line and thinks cell phone not 1911.
    Unless the bad guys are shooting at me or threatening me or my loved ones. I'm not going to play hero civilian. My gun is staying holstered if I'm far enough away. If I did have to engage the threat, then I'm close enough for the security guard to see that I'm not shooting at him but rather the BG's..

    This form of logic that you have posted is a common excuse to ban guns on campus.

    "Oh well if mass shootings happen and the cops show up to the scene they won't see who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. Then they will shoot at the innocent Guy with the gun and kill him."

    In the campus situation the fight will be over faster than police to respond. They would arrive on scene and either see a bad guy down, and the CPL holder with his/her gun back holstered hands up waiting for LEO's,
    OR
    The CPL holder is down, the active shooter is still shooting and the LEO's still have to engage them.
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    Accuracy ALWAYS WINS! So carry what you can hit with.

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  5. #94
    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CowboyColby View Post
    I can't believe some of you advocate the fact the you would rather cater to anti's because of how it makes you look. Do not give in to that opinion or pretty soon you will no longer have firearms. There is a time and a place for everything. But OCing is better than not carrying at all and most people don't notice anyway. It drives me nuts that MWAG are issued in OC states. Criminals don't OC and rarely even use holsters. Let a lone expensive ones like most of us have. We are losing ground daily and its because our own people are giving in to fit in with society. Well Jefferson and his bunch didn't fit in with society in England and thats why they came here and allowed us the rights we have and its our duty to preserve them and not give them up because of how it makes us look in the eyes of the uneducated.
    Quote Originally Posted by loneviking View Post
    Why OC? Well, let me ramble here a bit about some of the reasons and I do live in Nevada, where OC is legal:

    As has been pointed out, being able to legally OC is nice as there is then no fear of being prosecuted for accidentally revealing your gun.

    Here in Nevada, each and every cotton pickin' semi-auto that you buy that is different from what is on your card, requires you to go and qualify with it. I work weekends, nights...and have you ever tried to find someone who will qualify you during the week? I tried for almost a year and finally got lucky, got a day off and qualified with the Sig that I had to frequently carry openly because of the law.

    Another reason is tied in too the idea that concealed carry is something only bad guys and n'er do wells do. As a result, concealed carry in Nevada is restricted in areas such as the public library and public buildings----but OC is not! So, when going in too the DMV, it's time for the 'Virginia Tuck' and in you go so you don't have to leave your gun in the car, possibly to be stolen.

    One thing that I've noticed is that a bunch of OC'ers in town sure acts like a spotlight illuminating the misdeeds and political shenanigans of both the cops and the town fathers. If you want to know whether your political leaders and police really are law abiding individuals who care about both the state and Federal constitution, just try OC'ing around town for while.

    OC'ing is also a form of expression and it sure does work to also show which businesses are gun friendly. I, for one, sure don't like having my money go to any business that is going to infringe on my second amendment right. They have the right to post their nasty little 'No Guns' signs, and I have the right to take my business elsewhere---but this often isn't brought out into the open without OC.

    And finally, sometimes I just don't have my cover garment (such as coming back from the range when wifey calls and says we need milk) or it's just too darn inconvenient to bother with. Yes, you do get people that occasionally freak out, but that is there problem. Look, I'm a Tea Party guy and I don't think that Tea Parties on April 15th should stop just because they offend the loony left---and ditto for OC.

    I remember OC'ing one time into the local Grocery Outlet, where I had carried concealed for over two years. Yep, one of the clerks freaked out about 'why are you carrying that? That things dangerous!!

    I looked at her and said 'I've carried concealed in here for the last two years, and there's never been any problems. I'm the same guy, carrying the same gun, I just don't have my cover garment today'. She thought about that for a moment, and remarked that maybe even concealed carry wasn't good, but that she understood what I meant. No cops called, and maybe I got through to her that there are folks carrying around her all the time. Just because I was carrying openly that day didn't automatically turn me into a monster.


    This is what happen in my city... guess what my family did not vote for certain council members the next election day....

    These two posts are possibly the two best in this discussion so far. I often bring up the point Cowboy is making. CCer's don't realize that OCer's have been expanding many rights CCer's and OCer's never had before.
    NRA Certified Rifle/Pistol Instructor
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    Accuracy ALWAYS WINS! So carry what you can hit with.

    If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics stink.

  6. #95
    Member Array FTG-05's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spec View Post
    Unless the bad guys are shooting at me or threatening me or my loved ones. I'm not going to play hero civilian. My gun is staying holstered if I'm far enough away. If I did have to engage the threat, then I'm close enough for the security guard to see that I'm not shooting at him but rather the BG's..

    This form of logic that you have posted is a common excuse to ban guns on campus.

    "Oh well if mass shootings happen and the cops show up to the scene they won't see who is the good guy and who is the bad guy. Then they will shoot at the innocent Guy with the gun and kill him."

    In the campus situation the fight will be over faster than police to respond. They would arrive on scene and either see a bad guy down, and the CPL holder with his/her gun back holstered hands up waiting for LEO's,
    OR
    The CPL holder is down, the active shooter is still shooting and the LEO's still have to engage them.
    +1. From Gun Facts V5.1:

    "Fact: Despite prompt law enforcement responses, most armed and violent attacks at
    schools were stopped by means other than law enforcement intervention.225 Often these
    interventions were by administrators, teachers, or other students who were licensed to
    carry firearms." 225 Threat Assessment In Schools, U.S. Secret Service and U.S. Department of Education, 2002

    Hence, the "Police might shoot the good guy" is a bogus argument IMO.

  7. #96
    VIP Member Array mlr1m's Avatar
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    The Logic of 'Open Carry' and LEO's Attitude
    Am I wrong to expect a LEO to not convey any kind of attitude at all on the subject while on the job? I am fine with the officers not approving open carry. I have a huge problem though if they allow their personal attitude regarding OC to cloud their judgment when enforcing the law.

    Should a LEO stop me because he does not personally like what I am doing? Or, should he enforce the laws as written.

    Michael
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  8. #97
    Senior Member Array Devone6's Avatar
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    LongRider In a large part I do not care how they "feel". Their unfounded fears are their problem. A sign of emotional immaturity. What I would like to see is for them to get used to it, understand that they have no say in the matter.
    Sorry, but that is a terrible attitude, and completely false. We may all agree on this forum that "they" should not have a say in the matter (our 2A rights), but the simple, plain, and honest fact is that they do, and you (we) are kidding ourselves if we don't realize it. See, they have a vote, so they have a say, like it or not. And as a matter of fact, we are one election away from some Supreme Court justice appointments, and I'm afraid you might just see how much say "they" have depending on how that goes. Maybe instead of "I don't care" we should "Care and explain". Just a thought.

    TN_Mike If you knowingly go to the OPEN CARRY section of the site and post anti-open carry messages, you are simply outing yourself as a troll. Period.
    Or maybe, just maybe, they are on a forum, where everyone posts their opinions, and have a different opinion from you on OC. Sir, believe me or not, but I assure you I am no troll, yet in most situations, am not a fan of OC, but I agree completely with this:
    glockman10mm
    Me. I don't care how anyone wants to carry. I have my opinions, but that's about it. Everybody has to hoe their own row of taters.
    as well as glockman10mm thoughts on this matter overall.

    Guantes Whether I personally favor it or not is irrelevant, it should be the law of the land, along with CC.
    Even though my humble opinion may be different on the merits of OC, I also agree completely with that, and you are correct LongRider, the best post in the thread.
    My heroes are Veterans and My Father (who was a veteran).

    I believe prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance should have REMAINED in schools, and the Ten Commandments should have REMAINED in schools, courthouses, and everywhere else it was before the ACLU got involved.

  9. #98
    Ex Member Array rgbiker's Avatar
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    Logic of OC and LEO's attitude in Arizona is - LEO's I've talked with assume everyone in Arizona is armed. During traffic stops I've experienced in Arizona, if the LEO fails to ask if I'm carrying a handgun, I'll simply produce my AZCCW permit and tell 'em where the gun is.

    LEO reply usually is: "Well, don't reach for it." or "Don't show me yours and I wont show you mine". or "Thanks, uh, what kind is it".

    We do have some decent LEO's down here.

  10. #99
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Devone6 View Post
    Or maybe, just maybe, they are on a forum, where everyone posts their opinions, and have a different opinion from you on OC. Sir, believe me or not, but I assure you I am no troll, yet in most situations, am not a fan of OC,
    Devon, I have no problem with you not being a fan of OC. I don't even have a problem with you or someone coming on the OC section and posting thoughtful and respectful posts that are not in favor of OC. I DO have a problem with someone coming on the OC section and posting crap that is only meant to stir up arguments. Coming on here and simply saying that OC shouldn't be allowed is idiotic and it isn't just expressing a different opinion, it's trying to start trouble and being a troll.
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  11. #100
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    Wow that police pamphlet from Wisconsin is pretty unbelievable. Despite the law passed by the legislature and signed by the Governor the police put in print that they basically intend to treat people legally carrying guns as criminals and think up excuses to harass them.

  12. #101
    Distinguished Member Array ErnieNWillis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazybastid8 View Post
    I don't believe in open carry, it shouldn't exist. If someone qualifies to open carry, they should be able to conceal carry.

    Open carry should not exist because you don't believe in it? Wow! What else do you not believe in?
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  13. #102
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    I support my fellow gun toters' right to open carry where legal. But, I believe that the more it occurs the more chance there is that businesses will begin banning guns on their premises.

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  14. #103
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    When I was young (pre 1968 Gun Control Law) , people carried open all of the time, and nothing was ever thought about it.
    It's only since then, that things have gotten where they are today. A shame, real shame. Back then, if business "posted" and didn't allow anyone with guns.... they would have had to close their doors in the first month.

    With the economy the way it is at this point, businesses aren't going to turn away any customers they don't have to.
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  15. #104
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    We had a young man here in west Michigan excercise his right to open carry. It was during a parade in New Era for one of the summer holidays. Anyway the police told him to put the gun in his car and he refused so he was detained for the duration of the parade. After the parade the officers told him after checking into it he was legal and could go. Now if I get busted by an officer I'm supposed to know the law why didn't they, or was it a cleaver way to hold him out of the public eye until the crowd was gone.

    Anyway thier is a group her in Michigan that promotes open carry. And a couple of days later they rode into town on thier bikes with guns on thier side and gave the police chief a copy of the Michigan law about open carry so he wouldn't make the same mistake.

  16. #105
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michiganbob View Post
    We had a young man here in west Michigan excercise his right to open carry. It was during a parade in New Era for one of the summer holidays. Anyway the police told him to put the gun in his car and he refused so he was detained for the duration of the parade. After the parade the officers told him after checking into it he was legal and could go. Now if I get busted by an officer I'm supposed to know the law why didn't they, or was it a cleaver way to hold him out of the public eye until the crowd was gone.

    Anyway thier is a group her in Michigan that promotes open carry. And a couple of days later they rode into town on thier bikes with guns on thier side and gave the police chief a copy of the Michigan law about open carry so he wouldn't make the same mistake.
    The police are well aware of the law its just a form of harassment. I can understand their perspective. They have guns and they don't want citizens to have them as they perceive that as dangerous. Now that assumption is untrue but it appears to be the assumption that many of them tend to operate under. If you go to YouTube and type in open carry harassment or open carry you can find many people videoing such interactions with the police. Even when the police know that the people have the right to be armed and open carry and admit to knowing the law they still come to "investigate" and demand to see IDs and question the people about their activities. There is one from Maine where the police harass a person for around ten minutes and the person keeps asking if he is free to leave and the police keep demanding his ID and tell him no. Well after a while they finally just stand there and quit talking to the guy altogether and refuse to answer whether or not he is free to leave and he finally says that he will take their silence as permission to leave and does so.

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