The odd similarity...

[ecrist]

Reading through this forum today, I notice how these threads often turn into a Conceal vs Open argument. What I find amusing is the argument plays out nearly the same as it does between anti-gun folk and most members here.

Anti: You shouldn't need guns, that's what cops are for, blah blah blah.
Pro: But I should have the right to carry one if I want to.

Conceal-Only: You shouldn't open carry, it gives us all a bad name, I don't like it, blah blah blah
Open-Carry: But I should have the right to open carry if I want to.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[TN_Mike]

Yeah I know. That is why I kind of suspect that those who are so vehemently CC only are a little anti-gun. Kind of like Jane Fonda felt that no one, but she and her husband should be allowed to own a gun for self protection.

[justherenow]

I too find it odd, either way we are exercising our rights.

Iv oc'ed more this past week than ever, not had one comment from anyone. I wear jean shorts and decent shirts. I won't oc while wearing my shirts with off sayings or anything, I try to give a decent image of us law abiding people.

Sent from my EVO via Tapatalk pro.

[gasmitty]

Some truths:

A line from "All I need to know I learned from Noah's ark" says that the woodpeckers INSIDE are often a bigger threat than the storm outside.

Add to that Ben Franklin's quote, "We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately."

What I'm saying here is that factions within the shooting/gun-carrying community are possibly a greater risk to the preservation of our rights than the loud, nattering "antis." There are few absolutes in life, and within the greater "gun" community we need to make sure our tent is large enough to contain the wide range of opinions. There is also scant room for the "my way or the highway" crowd.

[Spidey2011]

Reading through this forum today, I notice how these threads often turn into a Conceal vs Open argument. What I find amusing is the argument plays out nearly the same as it does between anti-gun folk and most members here.

I bring that up every time anyone says that we should only be allowed to CC. Do they like people challenging their right to carry? No? So why do they think it's OK to challenge our right to OC? Seems to knock sense into people if you basically say they have the same mindset as an anti-gun person.

[sentioch]

I have never heard anti's using the argument that we don't need guns because police will protect us. I hear the argument that we don't need guns because the chances of being attacked are low, and so we should just not worry about it and assume we will never need one.

As for open carry, lets consider the pros and cons of open carry (as opposed to concealed carry):

Pro:
(+) Make friends with other gun enthusiasts
(+) Don't have to worry about concealment

Con:
(-) Bad guys know you are carrying, so they can single you out and disarm you instead of overlooking you
(-) Many people will be afraid of you or feel uncomfortable around you, causing them to behave in a way that makes your life more difficult
(-) You may occasionally have the cops called on you, wasting the time of both you and the cop

It seems to me that the cons far outweigh the pros...

[chiefjason]

As for open carry, lets consider the pros and cons of open carry (as opposed to concealed carry):

Pro:
(+) Make friends with other gun enthusiasts
(+) Don't have to worry about concealment

Con:
(-) Bad guys know you are carrying, so they can single you out and disarm you instead of overlooking you
(-) Many people will be afraid of you or feel uncomfortable around you, causing them to behave in a way that makes your life more difficult
(-) You may occasionally have the cops called on you, wasting the time of both you and the cop

It seems to me that the cons far outweigh the pros...

OC'd off and on for over 2 years.

Pro
1- check
2- check

Cons
1-Yes they do, I've had them leave. Not just leave me alone. Drive clean out of the business. Stopped cussing the lady loading groceries and left because he saw my gun. The wide eyes and "Dudes got a gun!" gave it away. Keeps my crazy neighbors at bay too.
2- Maybe. But it's lead to some great conversations. A joke and a smile generally break the ice. Except for the night manager at walmart. He did not like it at all.
3- Not yet. But I have dealt with several cops while OC'ing with zero issues.

Actually doing it seems to clear away some of the misconceptions about it. It's also a personal choice, and it's not everyones cup of tea. I can't get my wife to OC, even when we hike.

[sgb]

I have never heard anti's using the argument that we don't need guns because police will protect us. I hear the argument that we don't need guns because the chances of being attacked are low, and so we should just not worry about it and assume we will never need one.

As for open carry, lets consider the pros and cons of open carry (as opposed to concealed carry):

Pro:
(+) Make friends with other gun enthusiasts
(+) Don't have to worry about concealment
(+) Provides deterrent
(+) Allows for greater choice of firearms & holsters

Con:
(-) Bad guys know you are carrying, so they can single you out and disarm you instead of overlooking you
Often cited though not factually supported - similar to the anti's "more guns means more killing" mentality of arguing
(-) Many people will be afraid of you or feel uncomfortable around you, causing them to behave in a way that makes your life more difficult
So other peoples feelings should dictate individual 2nd amendment rights? Nothing like being a "closet" gun owner. It's a bogus argument, most people will never even notice.
(-) You may occasionally have the cops called on you, wasting the time of both you and the cop
The Courts have ruled that being in possession of a firearm in and of itself isn't reasonable suspicion for LE to suspect criminal activity. Properly educated and trained LE will handle such calls without incident. Improperly educated LE will get educated through their wallets in the courts

It seems to me that the cons far outweigh the pros...

The cons are mostly in your mind.

[tacman605]

Part of the issues with the OC vs CC argument is that it seems the only time anyone hears about OC is when they are claiming harrassment or a percieved 4th amendment violation by LE. An example out of all the posts on here so far only one has stated have OC'ed for years never had an issue.

The other thing is what the public generally sees and hears about OC is when someone decides to show what they can do and walked around with an AR at the salad bar at the local restaurant and wait for LEO to respond so they can videotape it. In response to the comment about trumping the guns owners rights. No our rights as gun owners should not take second place to anyone, but another persons rights should not be overruled because we wish to carry a firearm. There has to be a happy medium somewhere.

I respect a person or businesses right to say no firearms allowed. I have seen some of the people who carry firearms legally and they should not be allowed to carry a spork much less a loaded firearm and the last thing I want to see is them drawing their firearm in a gunshop to try a new holster but I will fight to the death to defend there right to do that. If I do not know you or your level of training with a firearm you will not come into my home and around my family with the weapon sorry not going to happen.

Just because someone has a different opinion that yours in regards to OC does not make them anti gun, they simply have a different opinion. There have been few, generally speaking, lethal engagements my persons carrying concealed and even fewer by those who OC so some of the cons listed I do not think are untrue just untested as yet. Also remember that there are other type encounters that are far from lethal.
If someone who is bigger and badder than you decides he wants the shiny thing sitting in your holster you better be able to physically defend it and your level of situational awareness better be through the roof or you might just get cold cocked from an unknown direction and have your toy taken away.
Yes CC does offer the element of engagement on your terms so to speak whereas OC if you are noticed you better be ready to rock and roll on the bad guys terms and your level of training better be on par or higher than the threat you are facing.

As I have said over and over in the forums I wish there was one nationwide law that was precise and clearcut and could not be misunderstood by either LE or the general public it would make things much easier for everyone. I truly hope that will happen.

In closing OC or CC either or whatever is allowed and floats your boat and can be done safely for both you and the public around you. Slinging a rifle across your back and going to McDonalds because you can nope can't say as I would do that or support it but whatever you think is best for you at the time, just don't expect sympathy when LE is called by the manager or people complain about it.

[Spidey2011]

Part of the issues with the OC vs CC argument is that it seems the only time anyone hears about OC is when they are claiming harrassment or a percieved 4th amendment violation by LE. An example out of all the posts on here so far only one has stated have OC'ed for years never had an issue.

The other thing is what the public generally sees and hears about OC is when someone decides to show what they can do and walked around with an AR at the salad bar at the local restaurant and wait for LEO to respond so they can videotape it. In response to the comment about trumping the guns owners rights. No our rights as gun owners should not take second place to anyone, but another persons rights should not be overruled because we wish to carry a firearm. There has to be a happy medium somewhere.

I respect a person or businesses right to say no firearms allowed. I have seen some of the people who carry firearms legally and they should not be allowed to carry a spork much less a loaded firearm and the last thing I want to see is them drawing their firearm in a gunshop to try a new holster but I will fight to the death to defend there right to do that. If I do not know you or your level of training with a firearm you will not come into my home and around my family with the weapon sorry not going to happen.

Just because someone has a different opinion that yours in regards to OC does not make them anti gun, they simply have a different opinion. There have been few, generally speaking, lethal engagements my persons carrying concealed and even fewer by those who OC so some of the cons listed I do not think are untrue just untested as yet. Also remember that there are other type encounters that are far from lethal.
If someone who is bigger and badder than you decides he wants the shiny thing sitting in your holster you better be able to physically defend it and your level of situational awareness better be through the roof or you might just get cold cocked from an unknown direction and have your toy taken away.
Yes CC does offer the element of engagement on your terms so to speak whereas OC if you are noticed you better be ready to rock and roll on the bad guys terms and your level of training better be on par or higher than the threat you are facing.

As I have said over and over in the forums I wish there was one nationwide law that was precise and clearcut and could not be misunderstood by either LE or the general public it would make things much easier for everyone. I truly hope that will happen.

In closing OC or CC either or whatever is allowed and floats your boat and can be done safely for both you and the public around you. Slinging a rifle across your back and going to McDonalds because you can nope can't say as I would do that or support it but whatever you think is best for you at the time, just don't expect sympathy when LE is called by the manager or people complain about it.

You make some good points, but I'd like to ask about one thing. Have you ever heard of a BG actually getting hold of an OC weapon? I can only think of ONE instance where someone tried and failed.

Btw, I think very few people here are going to go to McDonalds with an AR. That seems very over exaggerated to me.

[QKShooter]

It's an issue that different folks will have differing opinions about.

Voicing a conflicting or opposing personal opinion as to any specific mode of carry on an Internet forum & sharing those views with other pro-gun human beings is not exactly equivalent to joining up with the Brady Bunch or writing anti-open carry letters to congress persons.

After all is said and done members will hear both pro & con & will either change their minds "one way or the other" or (as is usually the case) they will just go and do whatever it is that they want to legally do anyway.

[tacman605]

Spidey. Nope have not heard of it happening that is why I said untested in my post.

In regards to the AR at McDonalds not far fetched at all. Go to Youtube and google open carry and I think it is Michagan open carry who conduct marches, public meetings at restaurants and ride motorcycles openly while carrying slung rifles just to get the attention from the public and from LE then yell harrassment for a youtube video happens quite often. Many people who OC do it simply for the attention they get from LE in order to supposedly "Educate" the LE community and the public when all they do is make themselves and all gun owners look like idiots. In some cases folks will OC with some cheap Jennings unloaded in case they are stopped by LE and the weapon confiscated they dont lose much. They have no intention of defending themselves just out to get attention. There are several on this site.

I am not opposed to OC at all just saying you better know what you are doing in regards to training and situational awareness.

[Lotus222]

Reading through this forum today, I notice how these threads often turn into a Conceal vs Open argument. What I find amusing is the argument plays out nearly the same as it does between anti-gun folk and most members here.

I totally agree, and I really don't understand it. I think there are the people against OC because of the perceived "tactical disadvantage". In their mind, if a BG knows you have a gun, then they are automatically going to attack you first, and that the visible gun is not a deterrant. Yeah, I don't get that, but whatever. That is a personal preference. Then you have the guys that think the public can't handle people openly carrying firearms, because it might make them uncomfortable. Ok... I don't see why we have laws based on "feel good" factors. In that instance, it isn't a person who OC's fault that the public has chosen to be so uneducated. The same can be said about the issue of police responding to MWAG calls. The officers must respond. This is their job. Ok... So this is unfortunate, but it is part of the job. Don't change the law. Let the public become more educated. If it became an issue, the police could start writing citations to the people who call and report the bogus MWAG incident. Just like any other bogus 911 call.

I have no problem with people choosing to not open carry. It blows my mind if pro-gun people really think you shouldn't be lawfully allowed to open carry.

[farronwolf]

Tacman brings up some very valid points.

Folks who think OC is the way to go don't particularly like to hear when folks who prefer CC express their views.

Of course the same can be said by those who prefer CC when we hear about the OC'er whining about how the police harrassed them or the manager of Cracker Barrel asked them to leave, or the anti person in the store made a big deal in the checkout line.

I carry every day and no one ever gives me any grief about it. Why, because they don't know I am carrying. If you want to OC fine by me but stop all the whining when the cops or a property owners or someone else ask you to leave or raises a stink with you in public.

When I go up to someplace that has a valid 30.06 sign or valid sign in another state that doesn't allow for me to enter with a gun, I keep my big boy drawers on and I either disarm if I really need to enter, or go someplace else without any whining. I don't give them no guns = no business cards, or bring it to the attention of the manager or sales clerk. The one exception is the credit union I do business with, I did persuade them to remove their invalid 30.06 signs, but did it directly with the head lady one on one.

I am not anti carry in any manner whether it is OC or CC, but if your drawing attention to yourself don't gripe when you get it. The guys that drive around in their Donk Rides are prefectly legal to do so, but I can guarantee you they draw much more attention to themselves than I do in my Jeep, van, car, or even the motor home. Why they choose to fix their cars up in a manner that they we never engineered to be is beyond me, but apparently they have a reason, and when I see them I shake my head and laugh, especially when there are red and blues lit up behind them.

What is the term "grey man".

[Spidey2011]

Spidey. Nope have not heard of it happening that is why I said untested in my post.

In regards to the AR at McDonalds not far fetched at all. Go to Youtube and google open carry and I think it is Michagan open carry who conduct marches, public meetings at restaurants and ride motorcycles openly while carrying slung rifles just to get the attention from the public and from LE then yell harrassment for a youtube video happens quite often. Many people who OC do it simply for the attention they get from LE in order to supposedly "Educate" the LE community and the public when all they do is make themselves and all gun owners look like idiots. In some cases folks will OC with some cheap Jennings unloaded in case they are stopped by LE and the weapon confiscated they dont lose much. They have no intention of defending themselves just out to get attention. There are several on this site.

I am not opposed to OC at all just saying you better know what you are doing in regards to training and situational awareness.

I'm sure there are a few idiots that would do that, but people do it everyday with other things. What makes OC different?

MLK was considered a hero for publicly breaking unjust laws. Why is it suddenly horrible for someone to have a public demonstration while LEGALLY carrying a firearm? I see no laws broken there, so why is it perceived as being wrong, when we gave a guy his own holiday for actually breaking the law? I agree that it's stupid, but they have every legal right to do so, and videotape themselves in case of harassment. If I were doing something like that, I'd be taping it too.