Gun Expert opposes 'Open Carry' In Florida

Gun Expert opposes 'Open Carry' In Florida

This is a discussion on Gun Expert opposes 'Open Carry' In Florida within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Seymour Gutmacher .... NRA and gun attorney Basically this gun expert says "Open carry is not necessary, and lets stop the bill from passing" There ...

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Thread: Gun Expert opposes 'Open Carry' In Florida

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    Senior Member Array theskunk's Avatar
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    Gun Expert opposes 'Open Carry' In Florida

    Seymour Gutmacher .... NRA and gun attorney



    Basically this gun expert says "Open carry is not necessary, and lets stop the bill from passing"



    There is a strong effort in the Florida Legislature, with a heavy push from the NRA, to pass an "open carry" of firearms bill for holders of the Florida Concealed Weapons Permit. Some proponents say this is necessary to prevent the arrest of CWP holders who may inadvertently, or accidentally expose their firearm. That is a misconception, and is not the law. Others feel it will make defensive use of a firearm safer and easier. That is debatable.


    However, the vast majority of Florida citizens, including those within the firearms industry, are in opposition. Why? First, is the obvious fact that the Concealed Weapons Program has worked so well, and the laws in Florida are so firmly established, that most people wonder why we need to "fix" it with something else. Second, is the obvious fact that open carry is likely to offend many, and will likely lead to a substantial backlash by businesses who, in an effort to prevent open carry in their establishments, will take steps to ban all firearms and weapons, even those that are concealed.

    Many of the states that allow "open carry" have laws that make it a crime to enter a store or business that has signs posted that forbid weapons on their premises. I personally predict Florida will pass such a law within two years if "open carry" is passed. This would be a felony in Florida because trespass with a firearm is considered the crime of "armed trespassing". It would also result in a marked reduction and effectiveness of the concealed weapons permit, because it will lead to significant restrictions in where you can currently carry. I seriously doubt that places like major grocery chains, banks, malls, restaurants, or medical facilities will welcome open carry, and will therefore take steps to prevent it. A sign that says "No firearms or weapons" will apply to both open and concealed carry if backed by a statute that prevents entry in such posted areas.

    However, it is true, that it makes no sense to prevent "open carry" at places where the owner or proprietor has no objection. Likewise, if the Legislature wishes to clarify existing law that inadvertent or momentary exposure is not a crime, then the remedy is to have language stating that persons with a valid Concealed Weapons Permit "shall not be in violation of the provisions of s.790.053 (ie: prohibition against open carry) where a concealed firearm or weapon becomes momentarily or inadvertently exposed, or where the person has the permission of the person or entity on whose property he or she may be."


    Florida’s Concealed Weapons Program works. Let’s not trash a system that we already have that works perfectly in favor of something so many oppose. If we want to make it better add the language I have suggested. Either that, or just leave it alone.

    Jon H. Gutmacher is an atttorney, NRA crtified instructor and author of "Florida Firearms: Law, Use & Ownership"


  2. #2
    Distinguished Member Array Lotus222's Avatar
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    Sounds like a lot of speculation and opinion with little factual based information, to me. Why don't you look north to the state of GA which allows open carry. We don't have signs everywhere that restrict firearms. We don't have any laws that prevent you from legally entering an establishment that is posted - especially not a felony charge. Our system is not broken. Maybe the state of FL should consider what is and should be "constitutionally viable". Or maybe the legislature has failed to read the second amendment. I have said it before, and I'll say it again. Laws should not be based on "feel good factors" and mis-perceptions of the general public. Educate the public. Have laws that are in sync with constitutional rights. Look at real world examples and factual information - not hearsay, hypothetical situations, or factless opinions.

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    Member Array TapRackBang's Avatar
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    It makes sense..logically you could be pitting the business owners who support concealed carry, or at least don't oppose it against carriers who won't support business that don't allow open carry in the businesses.

    Now that said its sad that our society sees every weapon as a threat and not as a deterrent.

    either way I'm sure theres gonna be hard feeling on both sides.
    "Arms in the hands of individual citizens may be used at individual discretion..in private self defense." John Adams

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    Senior Member Array sigs's Avatar
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    I think if you look at the facts you will find that this man is not necessarily a "gun expert." He is an attorney who is a highly respected expert on the existing gun laws of Florida. His opinion should count no more or less than mine on a law that does not yet exist. I am fairly ambivalent over open carry in Florida as I will continue to carry concealed. But open carry has successfully existed in several states without the sky fallling.
    TN_Mike likes this.

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    Member Array safetyguy60's Avatar
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    The element of surprise: priceless

    The right to open carry is just that a right.

    The decision should be ours as a free people with a constitution that allows us our God given rights.

    I will always conceal carry, but I want the right to open carry without the possibility of going to Prison.
    DaveJay, TN_Mike and RemMod597 like this.
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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Here's your problem. Short sighted folks writing the state constitution. Scrounging for power. What I have noticed is that OC friendly states have solid references to the 2A in their state constitutions. OC unfriendly or gun unfriendly states have weakend or no reference to the 2A. It was either short sighted or intentional on the framers of the state constitutions to not codify the RTKABA. I'm kind of surprised that Florida's is written like this.

    Article I SEC 8

    The right of the people to keep and bear arms in defense of themselves and of the lawful authority of the state shall not be infringed, except that the manner of bearing arms may be regulated by law.
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    VIP Member Array smolck's Avatar
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    So hard to think about this. From my perspective I think open carry is pointless and often times done to "prove a point" more than protection. However, I am also pro constitution and 2nd amendment. Granted, the constitution was written well before handguns were what they are in the 20th and 21st century. All that said, I think we should all have the RIGHT to OC, but the discretion and judgement to properly CC.

    What I hate more than anything is politicians trying to play God with law making. Pass it and be done already. We have more important things to worry about like how we are going to get the dollar out of the mess it is in and gas prices.

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    Member Array Timezoneguy's Avatar
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    The typical hype continues. I saw no blood running down the streets when CC was approved in Florida. No blood when the right to defend your position was made legal. I consider Florida a leader in gun rights. Sadly there is no status quo when it comes to gun issues. You are either pushing for more or you are losing ground. I see this as a premptive move to thwart additional restrictions. Make hay when the sun shines and right now the sun is shinning.
    In a gun fight, you can not miss fast enough, to catch up.

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    The title to this post is misleading. Jon Gutmacher is a expert on Florida gun laws, as well as being an author. That far from qualifies him as a Gun Expert.

    Even if he were a gun expert, his opinion is only that, his opinion.
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    Member Array justim's Avatar
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    'Gun Expert' opposes Open Carry In Florida. punctuation error, i fixed it.

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    As I understand it, no longer an issue...open carry in FL in now gone...as of 4:06 P.M.
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    Member Array Forscythe87's Avatar
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    I say just ammend the current CCW laws to cover those who accidentally expose. A slight buldge or a quick accidently flash is the main reason so many people want this law to begin with. If open carry passes ill still choose to carry concealed, but ill have the piece of mind of not ruining my life over an accidental exposure on my record (considering I want to get into law enforcement) .

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    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    I can somewhat understand why FL want to keep the OC out of the equation. FL gets an awful lot of revenue from tourists, non US tourists. Much like Las Vegas, they don't want to panic the sheep $$$. OC is legal, but discouraged.

    If OC is the best wording they can get for eliminating the "Flashing/Printing" rule then so be it. I know that is not mentioned in the bill, but I suspect that is a strong motivator. Certainly don't want cities and counties allowed to set their own laws and regs on whether or not you can OC. Keep it uniform throughout the state.
    Sticks

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    Senior Member Array Chevyguy85's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    As I understand it, no longer an issue...open carry in FL in now gone...as of 4:06 P.M.
    Sadly you're right. I'm not happy with the wording of the accidental exposure either. If the version I read is the right one.

    ‎"It shall not be a violation of this section for a person who is licensed to carry a concealed firearm, and who is lawfully carrying it in a concealed manner, to accidentally or inadvertently display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person so long as the firearm is not displayed in a rude, angry, or threatening manner. "

    Whats to stop an anti from claiming it was displayed in a rude manner just because he/she could see it? Or perhaps their child saw it as well. To me it doesn't seem to give us any real benefits vs now since as far as I know there have been few (maybe if any) cases where accidental exposure was even an issue?

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    Member Array mill419's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chevyguy85 View Post
    Sadly you're right. I'm not happy with the wording of the accidental exposure either. If the version I read is the right one.

    ‎"It shall not be a violation of this section for a person who is licensed to carry a concealed firearm, and who is lawfully carrying it in a concealed manner, to accidentally or inadvertently display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person so long as the firearm is not displayed in a rude, angry, or threatening manner. "

    Whats to stop an anti from claiming it was displayed in a rude manner just because he/she could see it? Or perhaps their child saw it as well. To me it doesn't seem to give us any real benefits vs now since as far as I know there have been few (maybe if any) cases where accidental exposure was even an issue?
    It is my understanding that the amendment you quoted above was "reworded" yesterday. It still isn't great, but it's a little less harsh.
    "It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense."

    I know this subject brings with it a lot of passionate debate, but at least we still have our right to carry concealed.
    "Laws that forbid the carrying of arms disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than prevent homicides" - Thomas Jefferson

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