The “Do’s” and “Don’ts” of Open Carry Part I
This is a discussion on The “Do’s” and “Don’ts” of Open Carry Part I within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; This is a contortion of facts used to support your point of claiming OC'ers will always be targeted.
Actually this is a distortion of what ...
May 2nd, 2011 10:43 AM
Actually this is a distortion of what I said. I did not say that they will "always" be targeted. I said that they "may" be targeted.
This is a contortion of facts used to support your point of claiming OC'ers will always be targeted.
If we can get past this one distorted point we can do so much better.
I open carry guys........this is not an anti-open carry piece.
It is a "how to be as squared away as you can possibly be" piece.
I have a deep concern for my friends who have fallen for the "The mere presence of a gun" philosophy.
May 2nd, 2011 10:43 AM
May 2nd, 2011 10:50 AM
As do I. To me "the mere presence of a gun" is a tool to use at your own discretion. I use it to judge peoples reaction to it, once you learn about body language and people's reactions, judging their intent gets much easier. I think every gun carrier (OC and CC) should get some training in this area, it could save your life without having to use your gun.
Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets
I don't and no one should rely on the mere presence of a gun to deter the crime/criminal. You have to know how to keep your gun in your control and know how to effectively and efficiently use it if needed.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
May 2nd, 2011 03:07 PM
To clarify my statement, currently the "privilege" of OC here in FL is so restricted as to be practically useless for SD, so I do not OC. I have while living in other states during my service, and not once was I assaulted for my firearm, nor were any general alarms raised. I guess those states realized a "MWAG" isn't a criminal until he breaks the law.
Originally Posted by sigmanluke
It is not now nor ever was my intent to go "John Wayne" and strap my six-shooter onto my hip. My preference is discreet open carry, my OWB covered with a loose shirt (it's too dang hot and humid here to be tucking in!). I can do so with my CWFL, but as the statutes are written, incidental/accidental exposure while carrying may be construed as "improper exposure," and I don't want to deal with that hassle. A bill is running the gauntlet of the state legislature that would allow licensed individuals to OC, eliminating the risk of trumped-up "improper exposure" charges.
It makes no difference to me whether anyone CCs or OCs. Neither method alarms me. We all carry different guns, different ammo, different holsters and carry by different methods. I only wish more people did one or the other. As for being targeted? I bet more people are targeted because the BGs don't see a gun than those who obviously are armed.
Retired USAF E-8. Avatar is OldVet from days long gone - 1979. Oh, to be young again...
Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
"For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield
May 3rd, 2011 02:37 AM
The “Do’s” and “Don’ts” of Open Carry Part III
The Retention Problem
“Ever since the first caveman grabbed the first rock inside of a fight, man has been fighting over a weapon.”
Weapon retention is something that simply has to be taken into consideration if you are going to carry a gun……concealed or open. I think we can all agree that if you follow the “Three Stupid Rule” your chances of being in a life threatening encounter are very low………that is if you follow the “Three Stupid Rule.” Most young people do not follow those rules and it seems as if the open carry crowd is predominantly young people. The chances rise dramatically if you live outside of the rules. But let’s all face it, even if the chance is low if your number is called it does not matter how many other peoples numbers were not called. All that matters is that you are now fighting for your life or the life of your loved ones. If there was zero chance of this happening then we would not need to carry weapons at all. But we all know that it can happen, so let’s get past the BS that is commonly thrown around by the political activist.
Retention is an issue that must be taken into consideration!
Refuse to admit this fact at your own peril. But do not blame the “self defense” guys for not trying to get this fundamental truth through to you…….blame the political activist for trying to hide it from you. When men fight, there will most likely be a weapon involved (even if it is an improvised weapon.) If there is only one weapon, there will be a fight over that weapon if the fight is not ended quickly and decisively. If you have a visible gun on your waistband, you have brought that one weapon into the fight. Basically that makes almost any fight that you get into a gunfight.
If we can just agree that “fights happen” then we can agree that retention is an issue.
When we look at “our power” it is strongest right inside of our work space. Our work space is from waist to chin, inside of each shoulder. It extends out about one foot from our chest. This is the area where we are our strongest. This is where “our power” is at its peak. This is right inside of the natural arch of the arms, if we were to bring our hands up along the body, from our waist up to our chin. Not only is this “our power” workspace it is also our optimal area of hand speed. If I want to open carry and I want to be the very best that I can be, I am going to wear my holster on my waistband, near my centerline. You can call it “cross draw” or “appendix” depending on the position that you use, but it has many advantages.
The number one advantage is that the gun is in front of you and you have better “security” over that gun. We have better security due to the gun being on the same side of your body as your eyes. The gun is also guarded by being in between your arms and inside of your power work space. This offers great protection from any gun grab from behind. When we look at conventional open carry methods of carry such as “on the hip” or “behind the hip” we see that we are really open from an attack on the gun from behind. When we combine “the eyes,”” the power,” and the “hand speed” from the centerline it is clear that any other carry position on the waistband are suboptimal positions in regards to weapon retention. While this concept may be huge inside of “those in the know” inside of certain tactical circles, it is not that well known inside of the open carry circles.
If you have made the decision to open carry on the hip or behind the hip it is probably a very good idea to invest in a high quality (I mean quality, not prolific) retention holster. Personally, I really like the Safariland retention holsters. Bladetec also has some good offerings. We need to accept the fact that since the gun is not on the same side of the body as the eyes, not inside of the power work space, and way off of the centerline we are going to need to supplement the suboptimal carry method with a holster that will mitigate those obvious weaknesses.
In Part I of this series I talked about “responsibility.” We have a responsibility to make sure that our weapons do not end up in the hands of the bad guys. That means that we must look at the security of our weapon. Centerline carry allows you to operate without retention devices. On or behind the hip should be supplemented with a quality retention holster. I am not interested in debating the tired old argument “Bad guys won’t take your gun.” That is not what my personal experience has shown me and no I will not provide a link or tell the story. All I know is…….BALONEY! Be very careful listening to a person that has never even been in a fist fight……..let alone a fight for a life.
If someone grabs for your gun, push down hard on his hand to keep the gun in the holster and to trap his hand, then go to town with hand to hand skill sets or access your blade and take out the parts of the machine that allow the machine to fight. Gun guys are notorious for thinking “I do not need hand to hand skills, I’ll just shoot them”……BALONEY! “I do not need to know knife fighting, I’ll just shoot them”……..BALONEY! This type of thinking is just another example of the perpetuation of ignorance inside of the gun world.
Let’s look at how to keep people from even thinking ”I could take that gun if I wanted to.” It all comes down to establishing a personal space around you. American men hold conversations at two yards. That is finger tip to finger tip. If anyone invades this space you are either dealing with an annoying idiot (you all know what I am talking about,) a person looking to teach you a lesson, or a bad guy trying to get to your gun. Be wary of anyone trying to get inside of this space. As soon as it happens you need to go from yellow to orange. Do what needs to be done to re-establish this space and establish that you do not like people inside of your personal space.
This is why I do not open carry in crowds. This is why I do not open carry anywhere where I know that I will be standing in line.
If you are open carrying in a crowd and it is impossible to avoid everyone, adjust the direction that you stand to mitigate your openings. It all comes down to awareness, common sense, and acceptance that life is not beautiful and people are not great.
The evil of man is just a newspaper article away. Bad things do happen to good people!
May 3rd, 2011 09:48 AM
When I have to dress out in full uniform, and wear a gun belt , I use the standard issue Safariland Raptor, which is a triple retention holster. Even with that we still train in weapons retention techniques. I would not wear a gun in the open with no less. The grab for the weapon is a very real possibility, and I would think even more so for the citizen.
This weekend, the wife and I took a bike trip to a nearby town to an annual festival, and I was carrying a g26 iwb, covered with a t shirt and leather vest. While there I saw several people OCing, and the contraptions they were using was horrific. One little older guy was carrying a j frame in an old leather holster that was flopping all over the place. In my mind I was evaluating him, and I'm sure it wouldn't take much to own his gun.
For me, OCing is not a good idea, especially in a crowd. I liken it to showing your hand at a poker game before the betting begins. Yeah, it's a right and I support it, and so is freedom of speech, but there are somethings we probably should not say in public either.
Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.
May 3rd, 2011 01:09 PM
Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets
May 3rd, 2011 04:19 PM
Great article. I open carry from time to time and appreciate the discussion.
I agree that one needs stronger situational awareness when OC. We should also state the obvious that how you carry yourself and appear to those around you makes a big difference as well. Confidence says to BG's that you can handle yourself and they better not try anything, and puts the sheeple at ease that you must know what you are doing and not some ding-bat with a gun. Being a "tuff-guy" is no good either. Billy bad a$$ attitude usually will get you in trouble just as quick as clueless.
I'll keep my freedom, my liberty, and my guns. You can keep the change.
May 3rd, 2011 05:20 PM
Good advice for either mode of carry.
May 4th, 2011 12:01 AM
The “Do’s” and “Don’ts” of Open Carry Part IV
Dealing With the Unknown Quantity
If your focus is on achieving your “paramount mission” and not on “educating” and “stirring up awareness” then you need to know how to deal with the unknown quantity. If you are out there trying to “educate” then this will not apply to you, but be very aware of that fact that you are intentionally breaking solid and long established self defense philosophy of not letting unknown people close ground on you in order to converse with you. This is one of my main concerns with what the political activist preach. They want you to go out and “educate” people that you do not even know. This would fall under the “doing stupid things” so that makes you the stupid person doing stupid things.
On the other hand, if all you care about is living your life and going home to your loved ones, then you do need to know how to deal with the unknown quantity. We cannot just pull our gun due to somebody getting to close, yet we do not want the wrong people getting too close, because their percentages of a successful attack rise with every inch that they close. We need to deal with them before they close the distance.
Of course the first step to this is awareness and profiling. If you see them early enough and you identify them as not being a threat……great! But, if you see them early and your spider senses tell you “something is not right here” you need to be able to trust that feeling and know how to deal with the person that is causing that feeling. When it comes to profiling, do not immediately dismiss the attractive woman or girl as “not a threat.” Using a “friendly” to set up the mark is a tactic as old as the hills.
Once you have identified the possible threat, you need to use your “positioning” skills to avoid their approach. This can be as simple as a directional change, stepping behind a barrier, crossing a street, etc, etc…….all while scanning for additional threats or other members of the crew. This position change will put them in a place where they will either have to counter your move or call off the approach. If they counter your positioning move they are tipping their hand to their intent. If they tip their hand you need to call them on it immediately. This is where we get loud!
“BACK OFF!” “BACK OFF!” “BACK THE [expletive] OFF!”
Sometimes the street only respects the street!
If you can’t curse like a sewer rat, your point just might not get across. Embrace that inner animal and let them know that you mean serious business.
These verbal commands are all done while using your positioning skills to maintain your distance and while scanning for addition threats or members of the crew. While we are moving we want to make sure that the adversary does not have a chance to take a “snap shot” of the battle field. If you plant yourself the snap shot can be taken and the OODA loop can begin to be processed through. By constantly moving and scanning we cut down on the chances for the adversary to develop his plan of action. If these steps do not work, the adversary has shown you his entire hand. What point you go to your weapon is a very personal decision. Your line in the sand has to be perfectly clear in your mind before the confrontation ever takes place. This is the point where all of the work you did inside of the “mental aspect of the fight” comes to fruition. Remember hesitation can get you killed! Get your head straight well before hand!
Once the fight is on, do what needs to be done to dominate the situation. This may mean stay at the cover that you had already positioned yourself at, explode off the X with your dynamic movement draw stroke, or even dominate the encounter with ballistic effect if you are in a really good position.
Another skill set that you are going to want to own is the identification of “pre-attack indicators.” There are very common movements and behaviors that are almost always present when the adversary is about to launch an attack. If you know what to look for you can cut down on you being surprised dramatically. There are certain “rituals” involved right before an attack is launched.
Removing of clothing
Clenching of fists
Clenching of the jaw
Shaking of hands or twitching of fingers
Inability to stand in one place or pacing
Blading off into a fighter’s stance
The thousand yard stare
Blinking of eye quickened
Lack of eye contact
Hiding of the hands
Hiding of an empty palm
Slow verbal responses due to being occupied making a plan
All of these are signs of an imminent attack. If you know what they look like you are in a much better position to deal with them. The difference between knowing something is going to happen and not knowing something is going to happen is huge. If it comes out of “nowhere” your response time is going to be very slow. If you see it coming your ingrained responses will give you a much better chance to deal with the attack.
As we see, the idea that relying on “the mere presence” of the gun is a lowest common denominator mindset. There is so much out there to learn if you want to be as safe and as deadly as you can possibly be. Please do not make the mistake of listening to those that do not know what they do not know.
The more you know the earlier you can get into the fight. The earlier you get into the fight the higher your chances are of coming out victorious. When we talk about this “time period” to get into the fight earlier, we are talking an exponential difference between your chances of being victorious. The more knowledge you have the more off sides you can be. You do not need to be attacked before you can fight. All you need to be able to do is articulate your reasonable fear of a life threatening or grievously bodily harm attack.
The more you know the better you will be. Do not settle for being lowest common denominator. The gun is not a talisman that wards off evil!
May 5th, 2011 07:08 PM
Good article. And I tend to agree with most of it. I open carry, I never open carry in anything less than a Level II holster and I find that when I open carry my SA is much more focused that normal.
You make some good points.
May 5th, 2011 07:48 PM
Oh geez.... someone wants to write a book about everything in the world, of how to's and how not to's.
It's pretty simple..... 1) use common sense , 2) don't shoot anything you didn't intend to.
I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."
May 6th, 2011 12:47 AM
Well, since Florida does not allow OC, I'd say that was not even a factor. And Platt and Matix would be the exception, as opposed to the rule.
Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets
May 6th, 2011 01:32 AM
All life threatening attacks are an exception and not the rule........yet we still carry.
Originally Posted by Al Lowe
I open carry and I conceal carry. Either is fine with me as long as that very personal decision is based on empirical data. It is the bad science and the pure manipulation of the numbers by the political activists that need to be pointed out for what it is. I feel that basing decisions on bad science is dangerous.
Empirical data proves that people with guns are attack.
IMHO, "the mere presence of a gun" philosophy is a dangerous philosophy.
May 6th, 2011 01:38 AM
It's always been my opinion, if anyone is going to carry for self defense, you have hope for the best, and prepare for the worst. Essentially, those of us who have decided to go the extra mile, need to practice. You can bet the bad guys do.
Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets
May 6th, 2011 11:23 AM
When you are asking for specific "examples" of "Open Carry People" having their firearms stolen you must keep something in mind.
Open Carry by ordinary citizens is NOT very common at this particular point in time. Even in locations where open carry is legal. There are not very many people doing it at all.
Of course...when you go onto an open carry forum there will be many members of that forum that naturally carry open but, compare those numbers to the 350 Million people living in the U.S. and the number of Open Carry people is less than a minuscule fraction of 1%.
Really what you NEED to try & find are "real world" examples of "human beings" with an obvious open & displayed firearm where "Bad Guys" are willing to take it and often "take out" the individual that has that firearm on open display.
When you look there - there are hundreds of examples & many, many, more worldwide than in the U.S. right now.
As civilized society (in general) breaks down/deteriorates in the U.S. & drug use continues to escalate - the numbers of domestic citizens that are killed for their firearm will increase dramatically as it already has in all other areas of the world.
Just keep this fact in mind. When you are carrying obvious & open in any location where a crime is about to go down.
You may not be wearing a uniform but, YOU ARE & WILL BE THE SECURITY GUARD equivalent.
I cannot even find this one story on the Internet because there was no real Internet back then.
The one incident that I know of personally was a plainclothes detective that was walking to eat lunch out with his sports-coat off & his firearm visible. He was slammed in the back of the head with an unknown object (brick - ball bat - iron pipe - 2X4 ???) [they never did say what he was hit with] but, his wallet and firearm were taken & this incident happened in the afternoon. Authorities believed (at the time) that the perp was an escapee or a drug addict.
This happened (years ago) & back when I was in Art School a few blocks away from my school & that is why I remember it.
The bottom line is that if there are truly bad people out there willing to gun-grab, overpower, murder, a security guard...they honestly will not hesitate to do the very same thing to you.
Actually all you really need is one crazy person or a suicidal goofball standing behind you in a line to snatch your firearm and kill a few people & while you may not be held criminally liable...you will end up in civil court.
If you are 100% confident in your ability to always retain & maintain absolute, total, control of your firearm every minute of every day that you're out among strangers & the general public then go for it. Just keep in mind though that the one time that you're caught unaware...it could cost you everything including your life.
I DID find these stories (below) in only 10 minutes of looking.
Baltimore MD April 13 2011 Police say a man who stole a handgun from a bank security guard at Cross Street in Federal Hill was shot by police several blocks south after pulling the weapon on officers, a city police spokesman said.
Anthony Guglielmi, the police department’s chief spokesman, said preliminarily that it did not appear that the man attempted to rob the bank. He took the guard’s gun and tried to carjack a woman, but was unsuccessful. Guglielmi said the man fled south, discarding clothing, but was chased by citizens who were calling police and relaying his location. He was eventually located in the 1800 block of Light St., west of Riverside Park in South Baltimore.
Jun 12, 2002
Another gun taken from security guard
Yet another Belize City security guard has been robbed of his weapon during a hold-up. According to police, around 9:00 Tuesday night a masked man armed with a handgun walked into Ying Ying Store on Mahogany Street Extension and demanded money. He ordered the people inside, namely the store attendant and security guard, to lie on the floor while his two accomplices entered the shop. The trio then stole the guard’s thirty-eight calibre revolver and three hundred dollars from the cash register. Up to newstime, no suspects had been detained by the police. By our unofficial count, this is the fifth security guard in three weeks to have his service revolver stolen. Today police in Belize City launched a crackdown on security companies whose guards are not licensed to carry weapons. A number of guns were seized.
A security officer's gun was taken from him Wednesday morning during an armed robbery at an Internet cafe.
Gainesville police said no one was injured when a lone gunman entered the Allied Veterans .72 Internet Center at 4158 N.W. 13th St. shortly before 9 a.m.
Witnesses told police the man took a gun from an armed security officer on duty, and then forced employees into a room where the business kept its cash. The gunman was given and undisclosed amount of money before he took the keys to another employee's car.
At 12:40 p.m. yesterday a man stepped through the doors of the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum. He took two paces, lowered his rifle at a security guard and, before anyone could react, opened fire in a popular national landmark.
The guard, who did not have time to draw his gun, fell bleeding and fatally wounded to the polished floor. Other guards fired back, cutting down the assailant. Terrified patrons, many of them children, dived for safety. And what moments before had been a bright weekday in June became a tableau of violence.
Report: Cash, gun taken in armored car robbery in St. Paul - Pioneer Press
Friday, 14 January 2011 06:09
The ATM machine was being filled when an armed gunman took the cash and guard's gun, the station said. The gas station is still open, the station said.
Inmate Steals Gun, Holds Hospital Security Officer Hostage
September 21, 2010 |
JACKSONVILLE, Fla. -- (UPDATE) A suicidal inmate, who was seeking treatment at Shands Jacksonville Medical Center, held a hospital security officer hostage with the officer's own weapon.
Larry Garner, 19, was receiving care at the hospital for eating pens and razor blades at the Duval County jail, reports The Florida Times-Union. The inmate, who was wearing handcuffs, leg shackles and connecting chains, attacked John Scarborough, 62, around 5 p.m. on Sept. 18. Scarborough had been assigned to monitor Garner's fifth floor private room.
Unarmed security guard faces lawsuit for failing to prevent massacre
Feb 7, 2010
CHA security guard attacked by 3 men
Three men attacked a security guard and stole his gun Friday night in the lobby of a Chicago Housing Authority building on the city's West Side, police said.
The guard was patrolling a high-rise building in the 1500 block of 14th Place in the city's ABLA Homes complex about 6:30 p.m. when he was attacked, Monroe District Capt. John Kenny said.
Kenny said the guard, who works for a private security firm hired by the CHA, may have been attacked because he had prior run-ins with at least one of his assailants. No money was taken.
Police surrounded the complex, recovered the weapon and arrested one of the suspects shortly after the attack, Kenny said. The other two suspects were at large Friday night. The guard suffered bruises but did not require hospitalization, he said.
U.S. District Judge R. David Proctor sentenced ELDRES DRAY DOWDELL, 32, on charges of armed bank robbery and using a .380 caliber pistol during the robbery of a Regions Bank on Warrior Road in December 2008. The judge ordered Dowdell to complete four years of supervised release after completing his prison term.
Dowdell robbed the bank of about $27,077. Birmingham Police found Dowdell hiding in a vacant house near the bank shortly after the robbery and recovered the money and a handgun taken from a security guard at the bank, according to the government’s sentencing memorandum.
Two men, dressed in Santa hats and masks, surprised and attacked the guard.
The men stole the guard’s gun, which according to police was a loaded automatic weapon.
“This is serious. I have a hard time believing it is a prank. It might be premeditated,” said Anders Krook, station commander at the Norrmalm police.
ORLANDO, Fla. -- A security guard had his gun and Taser gun stolen during an attack at an apartment complex early Wednesday.
Police said the guard was beaten at the Sabal Palm Apartments located on Raleigh Street near Kirkman Road in Metrowest.
The victim suffered several head wounds in the attack.
Paramedics said the victim worked for the apartment complex and was alone with the men attacked.
Orlando police have not received a description of the robbers.
Anyone with information concerning the crime is urged to call Crimeline at 800-423-TIPS.
Watch Local 6 News for more on this story.
Aug 4, 2000
Security guard shot, gun stolen
A security guard lies in the Karl Heusner Memorial Hospital after he was shot in the back on Thursday night. Thirty-nine year old Edgar Juarez, a Guatemalan, who works for AAA Security Company, was on duty at Superstore on Cemetery Road. According to police reports, the guard saw two men walk into the store. Juarez ran after them and a struggle ensued. As a result two shots were fired, one of which caught Juarez in the back and exited his stomach. Following the shooting, the men stole the guard’s gun and escaped on bicycles. Juarez remains in the KHMH in a critical but stable condition. Police as yet have no suspects.
Acre: 63-year-old security guard attacked, gun stolen
By JPOST.COM STAFF
Two masked men attacked a security guard Thursday morning in the southern industrial area of Acre. The attackers stole the gun of the 63-year-old mall security guard and escaped from the scene on a motorbike.
Security guard shot dead-firearm stolen
Forty-five year-old Ivor Grant of Hudson Street, Savanna-la-mar, Westmoreland, was shot dead and his firearm stolen by a gunman on Darling Street in the parish last night.
Reports from the CCN’s Liaison Officer for Westmoreland are that about 11:15 p.m., Grant was walking along Darling Street with his wife. On reaching a section of the roadway, he was pounced upon by a gunman who opened fire at him hitting him several times. He died on spot.
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