This is a discussion on The “Do’s” and “Don’ts” of Open Carry Part I within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Matthew Temkin OK, I am from NYC and the idea of open carry is foreign to me, but... What advantage is gained ...
Open carry may scare BG's away......and it may have the opposite effect.
Better to be ready to fight either way that you carry.
Forget about open carry for one minute and answer this question "are people with guns targeted for their guns?"
If the answer is yes (and I've read and heard of thousands of cases where they are) you better not rely on the "mere prescence of a gun" scaring away a BG.
It does not matter how you carry ........you have to know how to fight......the gun is not a talisman that wards off evil.
I'd recommend the above thread to any who might have doubts. As for myself. The only time I know that I didn't scare people off while I was OCing, was when I worked as an armed security guard in Chicago. I have no idea why it didn't scare the bad guys off. I wish to God it had. Then maybe I wouldn't be stuck with the nightmares, 32 years later.
I posted a very similar conversation (but completely opposite opinion) one time in an open carry discussion. The acceptance was very different. I was called a liar for quoting a week long 20 hour conversation that I had with an extremely high level thug, not just some run of the mill thug but a thug of the highest level possible. His take on this topic was very different.Spoke-with-a-Convicted-Fellon-Saturday-about-OC
I'd recommend the above thread to any who might have doubts
It is amazing how one mans' word is taken like the word of God when the opinion fits the agenda and another mans word is attacked even with a ton more experience and a much larger study group.
I could post what I was told, but it would piss off most of the people in this thread to the point that I would be called a liar again.
Suarez International prides themselves at "knowing the enemy" and we learn as much as we can from them. But all of that work and experience is scoffed at inside of this topic. The "provide a link" activists are positive that we make this stuff up. The "You do not know what you do not know" is very strong inside of this debate and experience is often thrown to the way side and "provide a link" is leaned on to the point of being ridiculous.
Must be a responsible, level-headed gun owner.
Must have some level of self confidence (even when unarmed).
Must have, and use, common sense.
Do not act like a Tex Grebner.
Do not act like a Kwikrnu.
Do not think you are a "sheep dog".
Many more but will keep my lists short and direct.
My awareness and the way that I carry myself turns away 999 out of 1000 low level thugs, but the real heinous stuff is not perpetrated by low level thugs. The gun is not a talisman that wards off evil.
The Shooting Club I am a member is secured.The gate is locked when used by members conversely it's closed when unoccupied. Even though open carry is
legal,I refuse to give up my tactical advantage.When on my own property I open carry as I am on the look out for 4 legged varmints.I also too old and don't
feel like getting into confrontations just because my local Police Chief and State Police have decided I am trustworthy to legally carry a firearm.Lawyers today
are expensive! I live in Maine which is gun friendly state that just legalized the right for gun owners to secure firearm in a secure place in the vehicle.
I am a retired AL LEO with 42+ yrs in mil/Co/State service to include UC international drug assignments while in the military. I am not 007-but any clue of a gun attracts undue attention from Bad Guys and D0-Gooders, who are usually a major nuisance! Here in Al the local Sheriff grants concealed weapon permits for a small fee after a NCIC check. There is a semi-vocal fringe group hyping "Open Carry" as a Right WE Must Display so as not to lose it? No one in AL even blinks when a hunter comes in someplace in Al with a handgun. Maybe in the Galeria in Birmingham you might cause a stir-but that depends on how you deport yourself!!!! You are a free-style crackhead Anarchist-looking public health concern-you need to be ready to be hassled. The last open -carry person I saw in public, at a major gun show, was a dirty "cowboy" with long scraggley hair, dirty pseudo-western clothes and a cowboy gunbelt with bullets and a Colt 1873 copy walking around in the downtown area. There are lots of arguement pro & con about this -this guy looked like an idiot and hurt the cause. I carry 24/7 multiple guns and you'll never see one. Discretion by rational people helps this issue.
Over a year ago now, sweatnbullets, friends of mine on OCDO were slamming you for these articles, and I was attempting to explain that you were one of the best in this business. (I say this not as a kiss ass, I'll call out anyone, but SI is clearly about as serious as it gets).
I have been carrying openly since 2007, and just today, for the very first time (strange, being the same day I signed up here) had an instance where someone was stalking me, clearly attempting to size me up to rob me my gun as I took a long walk through a decent neighborhood. While I wasn't thinking about these articles, suffice it to say that his pre attack indicators were going off, and doing everything you mentioned up until the having to yell and swear were what it took to get this punk to stop tailing me. Rounding a corner of a building real quick, then turning around to wait for him, that was when he quickly turned around and went the other way.
I take issue with your taking issue with talking to interested bystanders, because you can usually tell very well what someones intentions are by the puzzled, inquisitive look on their face, and these are the sorts that are worth talking to, in particular when they are clearly middle class office worker sorts, or customers or employees at a busy business you are patronizing. Even then, keeping/managing the distance and awareness of surroundings is crucial, but really, the same can be said of any OCing anywhere but the middle of nowhere or among a bunch of well trusted gun toting friends.
Skills with retention position shooting of whatever variety, this is something the PI 1911 in a Serpa or uncle mikes side kick OCer tends to not be skilled enough to do. Nor do they tend to know too much about threat deescalation, believing that the gun will prevent anyone from harming them, and that if that fails drawing it will for sure scare them off. I'm sure you know as well as I do that the average OCer who doesn't so much as have a NRA class behind them is going to usually do one thing, and one thing only, and that is the weaver stance because that's what they know from TV. The general lack of knowledge of conflict prevention, as well as shooting tactics plague the open carry community.
Last edited by Michigander; November 12th, 2012 at 07:51 AM.
Platt and Matix. lol I think that was the last paying gig David Soul ever had. He was actually very believeable in his role. Probably having flashbacks to his Starsky and Hutch glory days. Anyone here old enough to remember him as Jason Bolt on Here come the brides? Supposedly took place in Seattle. I think the recreation with him and the father from "Growing Pains" was awesome. One thing the FBI should have learned from the Miami incident in Dade County 1986 was that if your top shooter is blind without his glasses a simple strap or retainer cord should be mandatory for all eyesight impaired agents in the field! Not Just the worry over is my bullet big enough or does my gun carry enough rounds.
I understand and support fully the 2A but just because you have the right to do something doesn't mean you should. I have the right to walk through the park wearing nothing but skintight, neon yellow bicycle shorts but that doesn't mean I should! I understand and agree with the 'deterrent' value of open carry. Attacking a 'hard target' is certainly not in the best interests of any bad guys but just because you're OC doesn't mean you're a 'hard target' no matter how 'bad' you think you are. I just think there are way too many downsides to the average citizen to make it a good idea.
Even if you are skilled enough be really dangerous to the criminal population, OC in a crowded restaurant or shopping mall is basically asking almost everyone in your vicinity that notices to look askance at you. If you're as 'situationally aware' as you need to be then you know this and at some point it will begin to effect your psyche and your overall outlook on life. To most of the people that see a gun strapped on the belt of the average Joe Citizen in the mall it may just as well be an RPG. LEOs have to deal with this all the time, not just because of the fact that they OC but the fact that their uniform along with the gun they carry causes a visceral reaction in people and not just bad guys.
CC has it's own set of psychological issues that CHL holders must deal with even if it never becomes necessary to draw the weapon or take a life however at least for the most part they don't have to contend with the added burden of people's reactions to the sight of a weapon.
In all but the most extreme cases the articles have been very well received by open carry advocates. In those extreme cases there was nothing but "the agenda" taken into consideration. At some places and with some people if you are not "all in" with the agenda, you are seen as the enemy.Over a year ago now, sweatnbullets, friends of mine on OCDO were slamming you for these articles, and I was attempting to explain that you were one of the best in this business. (I say this not as a kiss ass, I'll call out anyone, but SI is clearly about as serious as it gets).
Here I am, one of the top trainers in one of the top training outfits telling everyone that Gabe Suarez and I open carry at times. Yet, due to the fact that we teach tactics and strategies well beyond just "the agenda" we are attacked as being anti-open carry.
It is this bizarre extreme attitude that leads to damage to "the agenda" when open carry advocates eat their own because they are not "all in" with the agenda only.
These articles have put a bunch of open carry guys in my classes because the teachings go well beyond the agenda only.
You can open carry and be extremely well trained with outstanding tactics and strategies. Sometimes that education tells you that there are places and times that it may be better to go concealed. Unfortunately that education does take away from the "all in agenda only" aspect that some of the political activist want so badly to perpetuate.
As far as "educating people" I have reached far more people in this one set of articles than anyone has ever done while talking to them in public. If you want to talk to people in public......go for it. I am a busy guy and can do far more good with articles like these than trying to talk to people one on one as I rush through my busy life.
There is also a well known bad guy tactic to send in "a friendly" to set up a mark. The more strangers you try to educate on the street the more chances that the mark can become you. This tactic is as old as the hills and as tried and true as anything. Reading people is not a sure thing.......especially if you can be suckered by an attractive woman.
Deception and distraction........one of the many tools of the skilled bad guys.