The “Do’s” and “Don’ts” of Open Carry Part I

This is a discussion on The “Do’s” and “Don’ts” of Open Carry Part I within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I generally open carry, and having read through the article I did pick up some useful information. It also helped to reinforce things I already ...

Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456789 LastLast
Results 76 to 90 of 124
Like Tree119Likes

Thread: The “Do’s” and “Don’ts” of Open Carry Part I

  1. #76
    New Member Array Nemesis76's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Montana
    Posts
    6
    I generally open carry, and having read through the article I did pick up some useful information. It also helped to reinforce things I already do just out of habit. I spend most of my off time with a former LEO from Colorado who is also a Security Forces member who carries concealed, so between the two of us the level of observation of the environment we are in is great. We have our "systems" to mitigate the posibility for any BG to get the drop on us and it works very well. With that being said I do agree weapon retention is a must regardless, so I use a Serpa type holster and we both train on the tactic for retention we have been taught. Just my $.02 for the time being.

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #77
    Member Array Sharp07GT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    25
    Excellent article , I'm sure the source of much debate .
    That being said , I will take my chances on being armed at all times possible . I OC when I can , but 80% of the time it's CC for me .
    Worms gotta eat, same as buzzards................

  4. #78
    New Member Array ranger1122002's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Fayetteville, NC
    Posts
    4

    Fixation

    Read the entire board, and reread the Platt and Matix stories. I take a bit of an issue here.

    The claim is that OC'ers are targeted for their guns. The examples that were given were persons at ranges and security guards. A person at a range does not count as an OC. If I go to a range, I am GUARANTEED that if there is a person, there is a gun. I don't have to see his gun before I approach. That's like looking for tires on a highway, every car is going to have them. Those tires are not items of opportunity; neither is a gun at a range. The same is true for the uniformed security guards in the articles posted. If a business employs an armed guard, then the presence of the gun was already established. This is not the same as me OCing at the corner store and being attacked outside by the kid who was seconds from robbing the store before he noticed my weapon. You're not comparing apples and oranges here, you're equating apples and cement trucks.

    I'm in full agreement that the average joe needs more instruction than "buy this gun and you're instantly qualified to wear it outside your pants, for all the honest world to see." I also agree with the importance of ensuring retention of your weapon on those occasions when a person would OC. I personally switch between OC and CC as the situation allows. Are there occasions where I want to exercise my right? Sure. Are there times when I want to avoid stupid people doing stupid things who may be spurred on by the sight of a weapon? Of course. This is SA at work, and it begins before I leave the house.


    Sorry, first post, I will employ a signature in the future.

  5. #79
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    728
    Quote Originally Posted by ranger1122002 View Post
    Read the entire board, and reread the Platt and Matix stories. I take a bit of an issue here.

    The claim is that OC'ers are targeted for their guns. The examples that were given were persons at ranges and security guards. A person at a range does not count as an OC. If I go to a range, I am GUARANTEED that if there is a person, there is a gun. I don't have to see his gun before I approach. That's like looking for tires on a highway, every car is going to have them. Those tires are not items of opportunity; neither is a gun at a range. The same is true for the uniformed security guards in the articles posted. If a business employs an armed guard, then the presence of the gun was already established. This is not the same as me OCing at the corner store and being attacked outside by the kid who was seconds from robbing the store before he noticed my weapon. You're not comparing apples and oranges here, you're equating apples and cement trucks.

    I'm in full agreement that the average joe needs more instruction than "buy this gun and you're instantly qualified to wear it outside your pants, for all the honest world to see." I also agree with the importance of ensuring retention of your weapon on those occasions when a person would OC. I personally switch between OC and CC as the situation allows. Are there occasions where I want to exercise my right? Sure. Are there times when I want to avoid stupid people doing stupid things who may be spurred on by the sight of a weapon? Of course. This is SA at work, and it begins before I leave the house.


    Sorry, first post, I will employ a signature in the future.
    Are you saying that a person that open carries often does not establish a pattern of carrying a gun and that this known pattern can not be used to acquire information in order to set up a preplanned attack for the acquisition of the gun sometime in the future?

    As a home owner, I do not advertise that I am a gun owner to reduce my chances of a preplanned attack on me and my home, in the future, to acquire my guns. This is very common thinking that has been around for a very long time.

    I do not understand this new angle on the old talking points that is being attempted. It lacks common sense and street smarts.

    The bottom line question is as follows "are people who own guns, targeted for their guns?" It really is as simple as that! If you do not think they are, you may want to educate yourself on common historical knowledge and the reality of the way the street works.

    It is your life.......you live it as you see fit!

    But, when I see dangerous misinformation being perpetuated, I tend to point it out for those that are just looking for information in order to make good decisions.

  6. #80
    Member Array carracer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Nampa, Id.
    Posts
    403
    I also agree with Ranger. You are speculating on events that may happen in the future using events that don't apply and provide no data to back it up. Please educate us on all those open carriers that are targeted for their guns.

    Everyone creates a pattern. Even not creating a pattern is a pattern. Please cite to the preplanned attacks that you are referring to.

    Tactical advantage? There is no tactical advantage to concealed carry as you are already one step behind if the need arises.

    I'm glad you realize that concealed carriers are more complacent, unaware and unskilled compared to open carriers. The typical cc'er tends to live feeling that their ace in the hole will get them out of any situation that may arise and so drops their awareness, maybe not completely, but to a level lower than open carriers.

    The information you are perpetuating is not dangerous, just the typical misinformation regarding open carry.

  7. #81
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    728
    Quote Originally Posted by carracer View Post
    I also agree with Ranger. You are speculating on events that may happen in the future using events that don't apply and provide no data to back it up. Please educate us on all those open carriers that are targeted for their guns.

    Everyone creates a pattern. Even not creating a pattern is a pattern. Please cite to the preplanned attacks that you are referring to.

    Tactical advantage? There is no tactical advantage to concealed carry as you are already one step behind if the need arises.

    I'm glad you realize that concealed carriers are more complacent, unaware and unskilled compared to open carriers. The typical cc'er tends to live feeling that their ace in the hole will get them out of any situation that may arise and so drops their awareness, maybe not completely, but to a level lower than open carriers.

    The information you are perpetuating is not dangerous, just the typical misinformation regarding open carry.
    The very core to self defense is about preparing for what might happen.

    This core is built around historical facts and historical experiences. What amazes me about some of the most extreme "agenda only" crowd is their willingness to stick their heads in the sand, beg for "provide me a link" and when you provide them with many, they have an unwillingness to see anything except the agenda that they are pushing. I no longer search for those that will never see.

    What I do is point out the the vast majority of open carry people (which includes me) no longer dump on historical fact, historical experience, historically proven self defense philosophies, common sense, and open mindedness to push a political activist agenda only. Open Carry advocates may be learning more and at a higher rate of speed, than any other gun enthusiasts. In just a few years they went from "It never happens" to "that is an outlier" to "is does not happen systematically" to "the acceptance of needing training because retention is a real issue." But we still have "the political activist only crowd" that has not taken this step. They have one agenda and ANYTHING that takes away from that one agenda must be attacked.........even if those that they are attacking are open carry advocates, open carry proponents, and a couple of the top firearm trainers in the country.

    Just because we bring historically proven and accepted tactical knowledge to the right to open carry, we are attacked for not being "all in and agenda only focused." As a Self Defense Instructor my priority will always be the safety of my students over a political agenda. Open carry is a very important right........but a solid self defense knowledge base, skill set, and philosophy is even more important.

    Tactical advantage? There is no tactical advantage to concealed carry as you are already one step behind if the need arises.
    This one argument was the undoing of the "political activist only crowd." This level of ignorance on the reality of self defense left them fighting from a position of an unmistakable lack of basic knowledge. This is the point where we called them out on their level of training, experience, and where they learn their self defense philosophy. Every "political activist only" advocate that I had debated either admitted to have no training or refused to list their training. My resume can be found here.

    I'm glad you realize that concealed carriers are more complacent, unaware and unskilled compared to open carriers. The typical cc'er tends to live feeling that their ace in the hole will get them out of any situation that may arise and so drops their awareness, maybe not completely, but to a level lower than open carriers.
    This has changed since I wrote these articles, but I originally wrote this articles to combat the "political activist only philosophy" that just open carrying a gun as a talisman was good enough. This was a very dangerous agenda. Since these articles, that has changed dramatically! But there are still newbies coming into open carry and following the "political activist only philosophy." You can always tell the newbies! They toe the "agenda only" line beyond any level of common sense. The perpetuation of the "there is no tactical advantage" lie is the tattle-tale sign of a newbie or a "political activist only."
    ccw9mm and Harryball like this.

  8. #82
    Senior Member Array Zralou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    681
    My feelings on 'carrying' are some basic rules I condition myself to. (not implying this is the right way, just my way).

    1. Be assertive, but not aggressive.
    2. Be confident, but not obnoxious.
    3. Be subjective, but not indecisive.
    4. Be cautious, but not timid.

    I sat and read all six pages of this thread today, and I have absorbed a lot of good information that has given me a different perspective on OC vs CC. I see benefits and drawbacks to both methods, and no one style is more "right" or "wrong" than the other. Either style of carry is solely the individuals personal choice, as long as the person has the 'mindset' to match the style, then it works.

    I personally conceal carry by choice, to me, the law, and in particular law enforcement, has too much 'gray area' regarding open carry and I don't want the hassle of confrontation every time I walk down the street.

    Sara Lou
    Sweatnbullets and NONAME762 like this.
    Just because i'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me....

  9. #83
    Member Array Qtip's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Mississippi/Tennessee
    Posts
    271
    Zralou, I'm not trying to convince you to OC, but I encourage you to look more into the history of OC in Alabama. The state's supreme court has consistently upheld OC as being legal since the 1840's. LEO's cannot detain you without RAS, and open carrying by itself does not meet that criteria. OCing is pretty straightforward in Alabama.

  10. #84
    Senior Member Array Zralou's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2013
    Location
    Alabama
    Posts
    681
    Quote Originally Posted by Qtip View Post
    Zralou, I'm not trying to convince you to OC, but I encourage you to look more into the history of OC in Alabama. The state's supreme court has consistently upheld OC as being legal since the 1840's. LEO's cannot detain you without RAS, and open carrying by itself does not meet that criteria. OCing is pretty straightforward in Alabama.
    After august 1st 2013 I may just OC once in a while, now that SB286 has passed and becomes law 08/01/13. After august I have it in 'black and white' in plain words, so no more 'shades of gray' to deal with.

    I don't have a problem with OC, i'm a strong supporter of 2A, but being female it can cause un-nesessary attention from some who still think of women as not capable of thinking for themselves let alone shooting someone. It also kinda falls under my #1 self rule to NOT aggravate, which can happen when faced with sexist mentalities.

    Saying all that, I will certainly exercise my 2A rights once in a while, in measured circumstances.

    Sara Lou
    NONAME762 likes this.
    Just because i'm paranoid, doesn't mean they're not out to get me....

  11. #85
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    5,906
    Im not going to get into the OC CC thing. I know what I know from my life and my experiences. I CC mostly and OC some also. If I OC and someone wants my gun they can have at it and find out stupid they were.
    Where I live the public or LE reaction to OC isnt a factor because neither pays it any attention.

    The only thing I will say is the repeated an OC gun isnt a magic talisman statement falls a bit short of real life.

    A gun drawn from OC or CC and aimed at an attacker isnt a magical anything either. BG or BGs may back off. Then again they may become more viscous. Any firearm thats carried in hopes of its mere presence somehow will stop an attack even by an unarmed BG, probably should be left at home. YMMV
    Aceoky and KyBill like this.
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

  12. #86
    VIP Member Array Ghost1958's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Location
    Kentucky
    Posts
    5,906
    Quote Originally Posted by Zralou View Post
    After august 1st 2013 I may just OC once in a while, now that SB286 has passed and becomes law 08/01/13. After august I have it in 'black and white' in plain words, so no more 'shades of gray' to deal with.

    I don't have a problem with OC, i'm a strong supporter of 2A, but being female it can cause un-nesessary attention from some who still think of women as not capable of thinking for themselves let alone shooting someone. It also kinda falls under my #1 self rule to NOT aggravate, which can happen when faced with sexist mentalities.

    Saying all that, I will certainly exercise my 2A rights once in a while, in measured circumstances.

    Sara Lou
    Just personally when I see a female OCing a sidearm or somehow know she is CCing one I tend to believe shes not carrying it as a fashion statement and likely would very deliberately shoot someone if that someone gives her reason too.
    Aceoky likes this.
    " It is sad governments are chief'ed by the double tongues." quote Ten Bears Movie Outlaw Josie Wales

  13. #87
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    S. Florida, north of the Miami mess, south of the Mouse trap
    Posts
    16,142
    Quote Originally Posted by Ghost1958 View Post
    Just personally when I see a female OCing a sidearm or somehow know she is CCing one I tend to believe shes not carrying it as a fashion statement and likely would very deliberately shoot someone if that someone gives her reason too.
    Never knew a woman who didn't know how to use what she had...
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  14. #88
    Member Array carracer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Nampa, Id.
    Posts
    403
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    The very core to self defense is about preparing for what might happen.

    This core is built around historical facts and historical experiences. What amazes me about some of the most extreme "agenda only" crowd is their willingness to stick their heads in the sand, beg for "provide me a link" and when you provide them with many, they have an unwillingness to see anything except the agenda that they are pushing. I no longer search for those that will never see.


    Sorry, you have provided nothing factual and speak only of your personal feelings on this. This leads to the credibility dropping a notch or two. Yes, defense is about preparation, for both open and concealed carriers. However you are citing stuff that doesn't, or so rarely, happens so as to perpetuate a situation as an every day fact. You could back off a little and be more accurate by stating these are situations that have happened in the past and one needs to be aware. History proves out that a couple of instances hardly makes the everyday occurrence that you are alluding to.

    What I do is point out the the vast majority of open carry people (which includes me) no longer dump on historical fact, historical experience, historically proven self defense philosophies, common sense, and open mindedness to push a political activist agenda only. Open Carry advocates may be learning more and at a higher rate of speed, than any other gun enthusiasts. In just a few years they went from "It never happens" to "that is an outlier" to "is does not happen systematically" to "the acceptance of needing training because retention is a real issue." But we still have "the political activist only crowd" that has not taken this step. They have one agenda and ANYTHING that takes away from that one agenda must be attacked.........even if those that they are attacking are open carry advocates, open carry proponents, and a couple of the top firearm trainers in the country.

    Once again, refer to the above. Historical references just are difficult to find, unless you are referring to LEO. A couple of non LEO instances come up in a search. One would expect hundreds or pages full of them from the way it is expounded by CC instructors. There are a few "Political Activist Only" carriers. They are few in numbers but very vocal. Every crowd has them, even the CC crowd. The vast majority of OC people are just regular folks like you and me. The biggest difference is probably that I cc about 10 percent of the time and oc about 90, where, you are the other way around. Retention training important regardless of how you carry, we could ask George Zimmerman about that, I'm sure he would agree.

    Just because we bring historically proven and accepted tactical knowledge to the right to open carry, we are attacked for not being "all in and agenda only focused." As a Self Defense Instructor my priority will always be the safety of my students over a political agenda. Open carry is a very important right........but a solid self defense knowledge base, skill set, and philosophy is even more important.

    Historically proven and tactical knowledge is always appreciated by carriers both open and concealed. Your example of being able to watch a situation and strike at an opportune moment is great. Our being able to be a deterrent is great also. Gary Kleck wrote in his book "Targeting Guns" about interviewing over 1800 criminals and reported over 50% that were concerned and would avoid armed potential victims. He also stated this number was most likely very low due to the egos of the persons being interviewed. I feel this deterrence is just as valuable as you "Element of surprise". I want to avoid being the victim, not just respond after the situation has arisen. But, yes, a "solid self defense knowledge base, skill set, and philosophy is even more important." Regardless of oc or cc. I, as you do, feel training is cannot be stressed enough, regardless of method of carry.




    This one argument was the undoing of the "political activist only crowd." This level of ignorance on the reality of self defense left them fighting from a position of an unmistakable lack of basic knowledge. This is the point where we called them out on their level of training, experience, and where they learn their self defense philosophy. Every "political activist only" advocate that I had debated either admitted to have no training or refused to list their training. My resume can be found here.

    I tend to agree with you here. However, they are not the mainstream carriers, but, are very vocal.



    This has changed since I wrote these articles, but I originally wrote this articles to combat the "political activist only philosophy" that just open carrying a gun as a talisman was good enough. This was a very dangerous agenda. Since these articles, that has changed dramatically! But there are still newbies coming into open carry and following the "political activist only philosophy." You can always tell the newbies! They toe the "agenda only" line beyond any level of common sense. The perpetuation of the "there is no tactical advantage" lie is the tattle-tale sign of a newbie or a "political activist only."
    Hmmm.... I do take exception your stating as a "Lie" that cc has no tactical advantage. That would be just an opinion of yours and not a fact. Regardless of the situation if it is needed to present your firearm cc is slower. Maybe only a fraction of a second. Maybe only a half a second. How far does your adversary get in that last half a second in the Tueller drill. Surprise is an offensive tactic as developed and not a defensive one. You are reacting to a situation that has already developed. Maybe there might be an opportunity to react or maybe not. Maybe open carry is a deterrent or maybe not. You lean toward the former, I the latter.

    We can both agree that carry, open or concealed, is not the panacea of self defense. Training is valuable regardless of method. No such thing as enough in my opinion. Situation awareness, in my opinion, is our most valuable asset regardless of open, concealed or not carrying at all.


    If ever in Boise, give a shout! Beverage of your choice on my nickel!

  15. #89
    Member Array wrearick's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2013
    Location
    Virginia Beach, Va
    Posts
    83
    Quote Originally Posted by Sweatnbullets View Post
    ....The bottom line question is as follows "are people who own guns, targeted for their guns?" It really is as simple as that! If you do not think they are, you may want to educate yourself on common historical knowledge and the reality of the way the street works.........
    They are but not so much as by the thug on the street as by the government "good guys" who recognize that the second amendment was written with a view on keeping them with in the limits of the authority we the people give them. At some point, be it a police officer on the beat or a politician elected to office there comes a time when their opinion of themselves gets too big and they begin to believe they hold regal or dictatorial powers over the common folk. Common folk having access to guns does not sit well with those folks.
    carracer and FTG-05 like this.

  16. #90
    Senior Member Array Sweatnbullets's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Las Vegas
    Posts
    728
    Hmmm.... I do take exception your stating as a "Lie" that cc has no tactical advantage. That would be just an opinion of yours and not a fact. Regardless of the situation if it is needed to present your firearm cc is slower. Maybe only a fraction of a second. Maybe only a half a second. How far does your adversary get in that last half a second in the Tueller drill. Surprise is an offensive tactic as developed and not a defensive one. You are reacting to a situation that has already developed. Maybe there might be an opportunity to react or maybe not. Maybe open carry is a deterrent or maybe not. You lean toward the former, I the latter.

    We can both agree that carry, open or concealed, is not the panacea of self defense. Training is valuable regardless of method. No such thing as enough in my opinion. Situation awareness, in my opinion, is our most valuable asset regardless of open, concealed or not carrying at all.
    Speed of the draw stoke is nowhere near as important as the timing of the draw stroke. Newbies want speed.......experience wants timing. It is this timing that is the ultimate tactical advantage, but most people do not have the training necessary to understand the OODA loop, the reactionary curve, initiative deficit, and taking the initiative. When you get to dictate "if and when" you are going to enter the fight, that is a tactical advantage of the highest degrees. When you are open carrying your ability to decide "if and when" is severely hampered and you lose one of the biggest tactical advantages possible inside of a life threatening situation. Speed of the draw stoke is not about "tactical advantage" it is about speed of the draw stroke. To infer that the speed of the draw makes up for your ability to use your timing to the ultimate of benefits, would be a huge mistake that can be found out very quickly in properly conducted force on force.

    This is why I keep my tactical advantage when I am in the big city, around crowds, or in high crime areas. Because it is clear that timing is much more important than a very small amount of speed. Outside of areas like this and where there is no other choice by law, I am willing to give up my tactical advantage (my ability to use my timing) and open carry. But then again, in most cases, my threat level has dropped dramatically due to the area that I am in.

    As far as speed of the draw from open carry compared to concealment, it is much more about the position that the gun is carried over whether it is covered or not. When you carry on your center line, as in appendix carry, you cut out all of the wasted motion of going behind the hip. This elimination of wasted movement allows you to clear your garment on your center line in relatively the same speed as from open carry behind the hip. There are things that can be learned that will allow you to mitigate any lose of speed by being concealed.

    A very small percentage of open carry people are all about stats and links. They cherry pick the stats that support their decisions while ignoring all of the stats that do not support their opinion. This has been a long time problem with this small group of people and that is due to how transparent their dogma is. An open carry person may deter a criminal from acting, A ccw person may deter a criminal from acting, an unarmed person that carries himself well and has some good awareness may deter a criminal from acting. Years ago there was a study done inside of a super max prison. The people doing the study would lay out pictures of law abiding civilians and ask the criminal predators, "which ones do you want?" Nearly every single criminal predator picked out the exact same people. The point is that you do not have to have a visible gun to deter crime. It is about "a look" that we have.

    People are targeted for their guns! It has been that way for a very long time (like ever since the invention of guns.) Just because we have a recent push for open carry does not mean that historical fact is going to go away........no matter how badly the "political activist only" wants it to go away. When we talk about how often this happens, it is like any crime, you could go your whole life and not be effected by any given crime. But, self defense is all about preparing for what might happen. You being targeted for your guns may or may not happen, but when you give away your OPSEC, the risks increase. That is the way crime works. People looking to take guns from people.......tend to go to people that are known to have guns. Open carry allows people to know that you have guns.

    In my opinion, the perpetuation of the lie "there is no tactical advantage" is one of the most dangerous lies told by the "political activist only." And until that lie has quit being perpetuated, I will point out that fact.
    Last edited by Sweatnbullets; July 25th, 2013 at 08:46 AM.

Page 6 of 9 FirstFirst ... 23456789 LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Search tags for this page

can a security officer carry a 40 cal. pistol in florida
,
concealed carry do's and don'ts
,
example of open carry
,
examples of open carry
,
nc open carry law
,

nc open carry laws

,

north carolina open carry laws

,
open carry do's and don'ts
,

open carry laws in nc

,
open carry laws nc
,
open carry methods
,

should i open carry

Click on a term to search for related topics.