Arrested Cali OCer trumps LEOs on related 5th Amendment violation

Arrested Cali OCer trumps LEOs on related 5th Amendment violation

This is a discussion on Arrested Cali OCer trumps LEOs on related 5th Amendment violation within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Civil rights attorney Jason Davis comments on illegal Open Carry arrest - Los Angeles LA | Examiner.com This article concerns an OCer who refused to ...

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Thread: Arrested Cali OCer trumps LEOs on related 5th Amendment violation

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    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Arrested Cali OCer trumps LEOs on related 5th Amendment violation

    Civil rights attorney Jason Davis comments on illegal Open Carry arrest - Los Angeles LA | Examiner.com

    This article concerns an OCer who refused to ID himself AFTER the LEOs completed an inspection of his unloaded firearm.

    This issue is becoming more and more important given the rash of, what I believe are illegal, inspections taking place at shooting ranges and on federal property.

    The Los Angeles District Attorney’s Office agreed to drop all charges against “open carrier” Ryan Burbridge...
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!


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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    No one ever questions people's rights, until they try to exercise them.
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    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagleks View Post
    No one ever questions people's rights, until they try to exercise them.
    You can have your rights, as long as you do what I say.
    William Hill and MKEgal like this.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

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    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    The Constitution of the United States of America
    ~Void Where Prohibited By Law~
    NRA Certified Rifle/Pistol Instructor
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G18CFw0lnD8

    Accuracy ALWAYS WINS! So carry what you can hit with.

    If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics stink.

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spec View Post
    The Constitution of the United States of America
    ~Void Where Prohibited By Law~
    ooh...that's good. I need to put that on a tshirt
    Spec and bwalker25 like this.
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

    "Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
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    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    This issue has been settled by the Hiibel case. The SCOTUS decided that statutes requiring a person to identify himself to a peace officer were not a Fourth Amendment violation. The court also found that refusing to identify oneself based upon the Fifth Amendment had its limitations:

    “In this case petitioner’s refusal to disclose his name was not based on any articulated real and appreciable fear that his name would be used to incriminate him.... As best we can tell, petitioner refused to identify himself only because he thought his name was none of the officer’s business.″ — 542 U.S. 177, at 190
    That is the bottom line law of the land. States are free to raise the bar higher, but what might fly in one state may not necessarily fly in another.

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    Senior Member Array Chad Rogers's Avatar
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    Just finished driving to a university for commencement and graduation ceremonies. I would like to expound upon my earlier comment.

    IIRC, the rights of the police under Hiibel are connected to their right to investigatory stops under Terry. In other words the police cannot simply walk up to you willy nilly and ask for "your papers." (Heck, absent things like driving and traveling by plane, I don't think you are even required to have papers.) There has to be some valid, articulable reason why they have approached you to begin with if they want to move into the requirement for identification stage.

    In the instant case, the subject had already had his weapon examined. Once it was found to be unloaded it becomes more difficult for an officer to maintain probable cause that potential criminal activity needs to be investigated. However, the circumstances of the encouner could change that. If the subject had been observed to be engaged in activity that appeared to be casing a joint, then perhaps the right to investigate would continue beyond the weapon examination. Heck I believe an officer could probably articulate taking possession of that firearm for the rest of the stop.

    Suppose the subject had tear drop tattoos at the corner of each eye? Even after weapon examination the officer might be able to articulate further investigation. Could he articulate that tear drops on the corner of an eye are indicia of having done prison time? If so would it be reasonable for an officer to assume that the person before him could be a convicted felon, and thus a prohibited person from possession of any firearm? These types of things adding up could give an officer the right to demand a name, and upon not receiving it, take a person in for further investigation, and have the courts consider it a valid detention in accordance with applicable laws even after the firearm has been examined.

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    There is a huge difference between identifying yourself and providing identification. If I say my name is OldVet, I've identified myself. No one is required to possess identification anywhere in this country that I know of. This is NOT Gestapoland (yet) and there is no requirement to produce :papers" (yet). Yes, if you are driving you must have a drivers license in your possession (a condition of the "privilege" of driving). If you are carrying CC, in most states your are required to have that license and/or identification on hand and to produce such on demand by an LEO.

    Therefore, does CA law require anyone carrying the "empty" OC to have ID on them? IIs there any CA law stating that all citizens must carry ID at all times? I believe the SC shot that down a few years back. If not, than the gentleman should have simply told the LEOs his name and that should have been the end of it.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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    Distinguished Member Array Spec's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    ooh...that's good. I need to put that on a tshirt
    when you do will you send me one?
    dukalmighty likes this.
    NRA Certified Rifle/Pistol Instructor
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    Accuracy ALWAYS WINS! So carry what you can hit with.

    If you find yourself in a fair fight your tactics stink.

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    Member Array MKEgal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chad Rogers
    Suppose the subject had tear drop tattoos at the corner of each eye? Even after weapon examination the officer might be able to articulate further investigation. Could he articulate that tear drops on the corner of an eye are indicia of having done prison time?
    I thought 'tears' were gangland for having killed someone. Hypocrites.
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    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spec View Post
    The Constitution of the United States of America
    ~Void Where Prohibited By Law~
    Maybe they should use that one in those California tourism commercials that won't include Arnold anymore...
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

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    Member Array thephanatik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I thought 'tears' were gangland for having killed someone. Hypocrites.
    Depends, can mean they killed someone, or spent time in jail, or lost a friend/family member.
    Your number one Option for Personal Security is a lifelong commitment to avoidance, deterrence, and de-escalation. - Rule #23 in the USMC rules for gunfighting.

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    Quote Originally Posted by packinnova View Post
    ooh...that's good. I need to put that on a tshirt

    They're available here

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    Ex Member Array azchevy's Avatar
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    Sweeping law enforcement reform is needed. It won't happen though.

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    Member Array Mjodr's Avatar
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    It might have been easier to just comply with the identification request, and then file complaints about the LEO with everyone and their mother later. I'm not saying not complying was wrong, though.. I admit that I have denied similar "requests" before.
    Coming soon to a Montana near you!

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