Argument for Open carry - Page 4

Argument for Open carry

This is a discussion on Argument for Open carry within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I understand no one is saying NOT to OC and I am by no means stating it is beter than CC and in many instances ...

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  1. #46
    Member Array Jenkums86's Avatar
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    I understand no one is saying NOT to OC and I am by no means stating it is beter than CC and in many instances I can see where CC would be better. However I do see it as a perfectly viable and useful way of being armed. I am neither entirely for OC nor entirely for CC like I said I am new to the gun world and am just trying to figure out why it is so frowned upon. Aside from "creeping some people out" or what have you, which like someone else said is no different than dressing or styling differently as far as I can see, where is the disadvantage? perhaps it deters crime perhaps it doesnt Ill drop that issue as I agree with angrynuni and I suppose it is a moot point. but saying that OC has no tactical advantage and perhaps is a disadvantage I dont understand. I dont have any experience drawing a handgun or timing the draws so maybe I am just naive but it seems having the gun right there in the open at almost hand level would be perfect set up for a faster draw than hiden under clothing and most likely inside the waistband. Even outside the waist band the draw is the same for OC and CC with the exception of with CC you have to move atleast one article of clothing forst to get to the gun then get it around the clothing it raise it up. To me that seems like it would take longer, granted not much longer but still if my life or my families life is on the line I would like it as un-complicated as possible. Again not trying to argue about this I am new to the gun world and am trying to learn and I do that best by expressing my views and getting feedback on them.


  2. #47
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Jenkums86, you have every right to seek answers to your questions. I too am on a quest for knowledge on this topic. The only difference in you and I is that I have been doing this for many years, professionally and otherwise. The problem I am having is matching the reasoning for OC against some of the things I know for a fact. Such as the ability of the openly carried gun to ward off evil doers. This does not bare out my personal experience with criminals. A seasoned criminal can definitely capitalize on this.

    As far as the quick draw, for the vast majority of people( unless you are an old west quick draw actor) this is not an issue., so that doesn't fly. I can't imagine a scenario where the properly trained and practiced CC'er could not access their weapon with enough speed to be effect.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  3. #48
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    It appears to me from whati have observed in these discussions that the only ones who get heated are those defending their choice to OC. I do not believe that OC deters crime anymore than policemen scattered all across the city. I have however seen many cases of armed security officers beat up and there weapon taken away. As a matter of fact in another thread on this subject, one of the distinguished senior members here posted many news articles on this to validate the point.

    Furthermore, I have seen no advantage, crime thwarting notwithstanding, that would lead me to believe the open display of a firearm on ones person is anymore effect than one concealed.

    Just because something is a legal right does not mean it's the proper thing to do. I give you the Westboro Babtist Church group as an example.
    Many here that defend the open carry of a pistol frown upon someone who would open carry a rifle into an establishment. And I would agree, that's over the top. However, using the justification that is used for those who OC in public would also apply to him also. Same logic.

    I submitt, that the open display of a firearm is bad manners, bad taste, and, given the lack of any real advantage over discreet CC, very questionable.
    Yeah, the more I think about it and really examine it, I can say I'm against OC.
    Ok, I'll use the same logic for a minute. I feel that it's bad manners to hide the fact that you are carrying a deadly weapon. Wouldn't a lot of people like to know that you have the power to kill someone at any moment? I find that utter disregard for others to be appauling, and I question why you would ever want to do something like that.

    Works both ways don't it? Now, i don't actually feel that way, but I'm sure some people do. I believe I said before that it really depends on where you are as to whether or not it's viewed as acceptable. Around here, I know of more OC'ers than CC'ers, and no one local gives it a second thought. Ya, I get a few strange looks from out-of-staters, but I've never really had a negative experience. I don't feel that there's an advantage to either. Like I said, it's a way of life out here, and should be chocked up to a cultural difference.

    As far as the discussion getting "heated." Does it not make sense that the only ones taking offense are the ones being questioned? I think it makes perfect sense. You question why I OC, I'm well within my rights to get a little upset, especially since I already calmly explained my reasons, which were well thought out and explained in detail. Seems that it was ignored, even though it was one of the few posts in this thread that offered up some decent information, aside from the same old anti-OC crap that's spewed out in every one of these threads.

    I'm not gonna change anybody's mind, and you're not going to change mine. You continue to CC, I'll continue to OC. You respect my rights, and I'll respect yours. If you don't like it, you don't have to be in the OC section. There's a CC section that some people might be better off sticking to.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey2011
    I feel that it's bad manners to hide the fact that you are carrying a deadly weapon. Wouldn't a lot of people like to know that you have the power to kill someone at any moment? I find that utter disregard for others to be appauling, and I question why you would ever want to do something like that.
    Spidey, I will not bash, insult, argue, etc OC vs CC, I support your right to do so legally just like CC for others, I don't like the OC vs CC arguments and threads that turn into heated crap.
    I do politely disagree with the above statement, and I'll answer your question with my own opinion....no, its nobody's business whether or not I have a gun, knife, OC, taser, or baton in my pockets.
    I don't see how its bad manners and I don't see why thats so appalling to you (definition of appalling = causing shock, horror, awful, terrible, dreadful....thats what the antis and say about ALL of us...OC and CC). I'm curious....why does that make you, a gun-owner/carrier appalled? Again, not saying this or asking you in a demeaning way, I'm curiously discussing the topic picking your brain a bit.....Do you consider it just as much bad manners to have your pistol on your side in your car where people can't see it? Isn't that the same line of thinking here?

    Its my well-being (and my family's) I'm looking out for when I go out in public, (and others since I'm a cop), and that isn't utter disregard. On the contrary. Its the utmost regard for my life, my family's lives, and for the lives of the people that don't like the fact the people like all of us carry guns I have the power to kill someone at any moment whether or not I have a firearm (or any other weapon) on my person....everyone else does too but some don't know it yet, and the antis/ in our society will be appalled no matter what we carry, how we carry it, when or where, even if we used it to save their life.


    Quote Originally Posted by atctimmy View Post
    My only thought on the matter is this: If you are going to open carry you are putting yourself out there as a poster boy (or girl) for gun rights. Like it or not a gun on you hip OCed makes you a symbol. People are going to talk about you after you have left WallyMart/where ever. They are going to say things like "Hey did you just see that guy with a gun. He sure looked...." The next word out of their mouth will be a result of how you were acting. Friendly? Helpful? Nice? Or will they say "Scary" or "Like a Psycho". It's really all up to you.

    If you act like a tool bag it will reflect poorly on the firearms community.

    If you act like a friendly, responsible adult then you will be a credit to our cause.
    +1
    I agree

    if you do OC, make sure you are the poster boy/girl for the 2A, carrying rights, etc....just like you should if you CC....but you will be way more visible and grab much more attention
    remember, its not the good guys/gals that do no wrong that get the media attention and the VOTER'S attention.....and the attention of state/fed legislators....its the ones that screw up, have the chips on their shoulders, etc that give carrying in general the bad image, etc
    again, I'm not against OC if its done properly, I rarely OC off-duty showing my badge....I stay incognito....they won't know what hit 'em til its too late
    Spidey2011 likes this.
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  5. #50
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 64zebra View Post
    +1
    I agree

    if you do OC, make sure you are the poster boy/girl for the 2A, carrying rights, etc....just like you should if you CC....but you will be way more visible and grab much more attention
    remember, its not the good guys/gals that do no wrong that get the media attention and the VOTER'S attention.....and the attention of state/fed legislators....its the ones that screw up, have the chips on their shoulders, etc that give carrying in general the bad image, etc
    again, I'm not against OC if its done properly, I rarely OC off-duty showing my badge....I stay incognito....they won't know what hit 'em til its too late
    Thank you! Perfectly stated, intelligent response!

    If you can carry responsibly, it doesn't matter if you OC or CC. Just be the "poster boy," no matter what your method.

  6. #51
    Member Array Dr Guido's Avatar
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    I fully support any OC initiative. I prefer to carry concealed...I don't want or need the attention it would bring, even here in Texas. We are currently considering changing to open carry. I'm for it but my only concern (seemingly shared by many) is that some idiot in the legislature will get in a hurry, screw up the law, and accidentally make it illegal to carry concealed while requiring open carry. If this does happen, I hope the law enforcement community will just ignore the mistake until it can be corrected. In a perfect world, if you are licensed to carry a gun, you should be able to carry it anyway you want. As a matter of fact, I see licensing as unconstitutional. It's an infringement on our right to bear arms.

    As to all these arguments, everybody has their point of view. I'm just in favor of ANY Legislation that gets us back to the TRUE MEANING AND PURPOSE of the Second Amendment, which is to insure that citizens have the tools they need to overthrow the government by force if it gets too far out of hand. Yes, if I want to carry a portable chain gun around with me, I should be able to do so.
    After many years of consideration, I must regretfully conclude that diversity is our enemy.

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    This has been about the most civil thread I have seen on this subject and that is to the credit of those who participated.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    It's not my intention to attempt to change anyones mind, but to open up conversation that allows us to look at and evaluate things. Not to insult or argue, but to examine the virtues of open carry if they truly exist, weigh them against myth vs reality , and look at the cc vs oc in an objective light.

    If there's an advantage to oc over cc that I have missed then I want to know about it.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    This has been about the most civil thread I have seen on this subject and that is to the credit of those who participated.
    +1
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  10. #55
    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    Outside of someone wishing to make a political protest (which does hold some usefulness, IMO) & their willingness to deal with the obvious ramifications, I don't see the sense for OC other than LEOs or others performing an official duty. The advantage of 'not showing your cards' seems to be large in my scope of things.
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

  11. #56
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    If there's an advantage to oc over cc that I have missed then I want to know about it.
    No advantage. They're about the same as far as I'm concerned.

  12. #57
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    I don't need an argument for open carry. It's legal to open carry. That ends the discussion right there. Period.
    Spidey2011 likes this.
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  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by smolck
    ...don't see why we need the attention it brings, the encounters with LEO's
    ... you are just as safe and much less hassled.
    Drawing from OC is faster than drawing from cc.
    And if your other arm is being used to ward off a blow, or has been damaged, how will you get your shirt out of the way?
    Besides, it usually doesn't bring attention. Most people don't notice.
    LEOs can be dealt with politely & within the law. If they break the law, my lawyer can deal with them.

    Quote Originally Posted by smolck
    If you want to make a political statement... a single person OC'ing in some town isn't doing anything to further 2nd amendment rights, in fact, I submit to you that he is in fact doing more harm than good.
    I don't carry to make a statement, I carry to protect myself.
    I realize that I'm also standing up for the rights of everyone who carries, and I'm educating everyone who notices that I'm armed.
    Every person who sees me shopping, notices I'm acting just like everyone else, & comments on it to someone else "I saw this woman at the grocery store today, & she had a pistol", & also sees that absolutely nothing bad happens... I'm educating just by doing normal stuff.

    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm
    Public perception is important. And, what is really gained?
    See above, about positive encounters. If someone's only exposure to guns is movies & the news, they're going to be pretty negative. Seeing a normal everyday person carrying, and seeing nothing bad happening, chips away at their misconceptions.

    Quote Originally Posted by shyguy
    open carriers come off sometimes as cocky to other people and LEOs.
    Anyone who doesn't do what a LEO demands (legal or not) comes off as cocky.
    Self-assured, confident, not scared... yes. Cocky? I don't think I am.

    Quote Originally Posted by adric22
    if you are open-carrying then a LEO might wonder if you have a permit and ask to see it.
    S/he can ask for almost anything. Doesn't mean you have to show ID.
    They're not allowed to stop someone driving a car just to check a permit, so why would they be allowed to stop someone doing anything else legal just to check a permit? [In Philly there's a law saying you have to have a permit to OC, so they're allowed to check for one.]
    Unless they have RAS of a crime, they can't detain you.
    And you always have the right to remain silent.
    "The female of the species is more deadly than the male." R. Kipling

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  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm
    Since there is no evidence that it deters crime, no evidence that it's tactically sound, (and in most instances it has been established the reverse is true), then why do it over CC? What the motive?
    I'd rather have a BG see my pistol and decide to attack someone else than have to use it to stop him from attacking me.
    If I carry concealed, I look just like all the sheep.
    Criminals admit they won't attack a person or home they even think is armed.

    Here in WI, for now, we can only legally carry openly.
    When I go visit my mom, who lives in another state, I carry concealed. I'm pretty sure she'd be Not Happy, at least for a little while, knowing I was armed, & I'd rather not upset my mother. The only way I want her to find out I'm carrying is if I have to defend us, & then I think she'll concede the point that the gun was useful.

    Here are some videos I've taken of shopping in various places, even going into a bank, while OCing.
    Nothing bad happens. Some people even notice & smile at me.

    YouTube - ‪30DEC10 Menard's OC.wmv‬‏
    YouTube - ‪30DEC10 Woodmans OC.wmv‬‏
    YouTube - ‪16NOV10 Menard's OC.wmv‬‏
    YouTube - ‪21OCT10 bank OC titled.wmv‬‏

    The only problem related to OC that I've ever had was when someone called police to ask if OC is legal.
    Instead of saying yes, the police overreacted.
    Even though they had details from both of the callers saying that I wasn't being threatening, & they repeatedly asked if OC was legal (but got no answer), I was taken from my car at gunpoint, handcuffed, groped, arrested (for something their Chief told them a year before they weren't allowed to arrest for), fingerprinted, etc.
    The city paid my lawyer & I a bit of money to settle the federal suit.
    "The female of the species is more deadly than the male." R. Kipling

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  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by MKEgal View Post
    I'd rather have a BG see my pistol and decide to attack someone else than have to use it to stop him from attacking me.
    If I carry concealed, I look just like all the sheep.
    Criminals admit they won't attack a person or home they even think is armed.
    "Criminals admit"......Most or enough do to justify tactical OC. This is your embedded assumption. Please cite your data source. I like to research it myself and appreciate your help.

    I can just as easily see the opposite of this. My sidearm as a big fat target to a HARDENED criminal(s) and this is the large tactical danger to OC IMO. (again, to each their own). Criminals go after LEO guns, why not the same/moreso for a middle aged civilian woman with no LEO around?

    I wonder what level retention holder you use? In one video there was no strap over the backstrap on your Glock. Moreover in another video I saw no Serpa/retention of any type. Thats a huge, Peterbilt size tactical hole IMO.

    Someone chatting you up from the front about your OC - while partner comes up from your six.... Or someone just comes up to you to congratulate you on your OC smiling, shoots his hand onto the handle of your appendix carry glock, as he violently palms/punches you in the face, and takes your weapon. This risk clearly exists low probability or not. I argue less probable for my AIWB cuz no one knows its there. But its still an issue for me that I train. Again to each their own, but leads me to....

    I wonder what/how much FoF retention work you do with aggressive, strong male opponents that intend to get your red training gun out of a non retention, open carry holster? Your gun hangs out for all to see vs CC (its still an issue with CC). Please go do some aggressive FoF retention work. I wonder if you can commit to actually doing Quality FoF retention work. I really hope so.

    I find these Critically important tactical questions and offer them in positive faith to you as a member of this forum. We are all on the same team.

    Open carry as criminal deterrent to feel safe.....same potential emotional issue as CC....lowers fear and SA with it. Lowering fear fine, lowering SA...ah..not so much. Seem clear to me it lowers both of yours since you, at a minimum, fail to use a solid retention holster - especially as a woman with less general strength as a man (my OBJECTIVE COMMENT ONLY). I wonder how long you last with a thug hand to hand.

    Moreover, you state you look like all the other sheep if you CC. This clearly, IMHO, seems to show glaring a hole in your ability to project a different look/aura/stance/presence than sheep. So you rely on your OC sidearm completely/extremely heavily to differentiate yourself. I suggest this may create an Extremely Large self-Hidden Foundational Hole in your SD protocol. This statement is intentionally (and good faith positively) confrontational to you. We are on the same team here at DC and I see this and need to tell you what I see. I suggest any book by Rory Miller.

    My wife is can easily differentiate herself from sheep when in public. Shes 5'2 and doesnt OC.

    I notice OC brings alot of attention - Grey Man/Woman it isnt. Those that want attention may like OC better for that reason alone. Some do it with cool motorcycles/cars/clothes....attention is a personal choice...None of my business.....

    Tactically, I notice I have to do WAY more SA work with all that attention. Lots more incoming data to process, lots more to miss. I notice this diverts my attention from proactive to reactive. Gets people away from my area talking. Lets alot of people know by hearing other people talk about it like ripples moving away on water.

    If I want to be an advocate for gun rights, I prefer to donate, man a booth, and/or hold a sign in support while CC versus using OC as my 2nd Amendment platform. To each their own...

    As far as OC drawing with a solid retention holster versus CC speed straight up, I see no practical speed difference with consistent training on either method. Now add real/fof perp pressure.....

    I prefer the tactical element of CC surprise and lots and lots of physical, tactical, and psychological FoF/SA training as plain vanilla civilian.

    I support OC for those that choose. I notice OC comes with its own unique set of tactical issues.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
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