Philadelphia Police Say They Won't Look the Other Way on Open-Carry Gun Owners - Page 2

Philadelphia Police Say They Won't Look the Other Way on Open-Carry Gun Owners

This is a discussion on Philadelphia Police Say They Won't Look the Other Way on Open-Carry Gun Owners within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Did we listen to the same tape? The kid was polite, but not subservient. The LEO was rude, foul-mouthed, unreasonable, and ignorant of the law. ...

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  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    Did we listen to the same tape? The kid was polite, but not subservient. The LEO was rude, foul-mouthed, unreasonable, and ignorant of the law. Totally out of line.
    Yes-I believe we listened to the same tape.

    I agree that the officer here was out of line. Mr. F was polite, but where you say he was "not subservient", I would (and I think I did) phrase it as "not compliant". IIRC, the officer gave him specific instructions, which he refused to follow. I agree that he was polite about it, but he still refused to follow (be compliant with) the directions of the officer. All I am trying to say here that if Mr. F wanted to make a point about the Philly cops abusing their power, the point would have been made more clearly and cleanly IF he had been compliant--then they would not have had ANYTHING to use against him. As it stands now, because he refused (politely, yes), to obey the officer, its very possible that the point he was trying to make will be lost, or at least diminished by his refusal to be compliant. And I agree with Captain Zipper that most cops want to do their jobs and get back home each night.
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    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

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  2. #17
    Member Array CaptainZippr's Avatar
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    Well said Chaplain. And thank you for serving, and for 30 years no less. Yowzer!
    "An armed man is a citizen. A disarmed man is a subject."
    Anon.

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    CaptaiZippr: Thanks!! The truth of the matter is that I should have paid the Army, rather tan getting paid--I LOVED what I did (well, there were some occasions where it wasn't quite so "fun"). I wouldn't have left, but they said that it was time to go and make room for some younger guys. Near the end, coming back from a early morning run in Germany, the two young soldiers who were guarding the entrance to our housing area told me that I was "looking good" (something that I didn't particulary feel right at that moment). I stopped and asked them how old they were--I was older than both of them put together + about 8 years--I knew then that the time was short
    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
    - Ronald Reagan

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edlex View Post
    Fear plays a huge factor in these dramas. I'm sure it would make a LEO's job much less complicated if they were the only ones who were armed but in this wonderful country where our 2A rights are protected , that's just not possible.
    Actually, it's not possible anywhere. I think we've seen that demonstrated in 'total ban' countries.

    And someone mentioned that cops just want to make it home at the end of the day. This is true... for MOST of them. But there are always powerhounds out there who love to swing their authority around like a 2x4. You see the same kind of people in every profession; but the impact of these clowns when they get into LE is far more severe.
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  5. #20
    Member Array K9Buck's Avatar
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    Chaplain, hello and let me say that I agree with you 100%. The guy was definintely looking to "stir the pot" and he did! For proponets of open-carry, he did them no favors by his recent actions.

    I'm brand new to the gun world although I have always supported the right to own and bear arms. I just never felt the need, until last week, to own one. I read the article and I was astounded to learn that such a thing as open-carry is actually legal in many jurisdictions. That might seem shocking to many of you here that I would unaware of this but I can tell you that I am, usually, very well read. I had no idea.

    If I saw some dude walking around with a handgun openly strapped around his waist it would concern me and, prior to my knowing the open-carry concept, would probably have been on the phone calling 911 if I had been walking the streets of Philly and encountered this guy.

    I participated in this very same discussion on another forum and a number of police officers have said they routinely get calls about people openly carrying a gun. Even though those particular officers were in open-carry jurisdictions (or so they said), they said they were obligated to go "check it out" to make sure everything was on the up-and-up. A number of other gun owners have said it's not worth the hassle of open-carry.

    I'll be frank. I'm inclined to think that open-carry probably isn't such a good idea, for a variety of reasons, in many jurisdictions. On the other hand, I'm admittedly new to all of this and am happy to be persuaded. :)

  6. #21
    Member Array shadow38's Avatar
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    the tape has been removed. is ther another that i can link up to , i do want to research this a bit . thanx.

  7. #22
    Senior Member Array swinokur's Avatar
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    If the PA legislature changed the law that requires a LTCF to OC in cities of the first class (Philadelphia) these incidents will stop and Philly can no longer stop OC'ers to check permits. The entire state can have one method of OC. No permit required.

    PA has state preemption. I think the way to fix this is to concentrate on the legislature, not the city .
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  8. #23
    Ex Member Array William Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainZippr View Post
    Here is the tape.......... YouTube - ‪Mark Fiorino Arrested By Philadelphia Police - Openly Carrying - Sergeant Michael Dougherty‬‏

    Although Mark seems to know the laws better than the responding officers in this case I personally would have done as the cop said and I would have been a bit less brash. All he did was raise the hostility level of all involved.
    Standing up for yourself, quoting the law, and refusing to let a bully in uniform humiliate you isn't being brash. He didn't raise the hostility level, the moron with a badge was already hostile. Or do you use the "F" word in casual coversation?

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainZippr View Post
    In my opinion most cops are just trying to make it home without getting shot.
    If you're a cop afraid of getting shot, stop being a cop. When you take the oath to protect and serve, you understand that it may cost you your life. If you can't handle that, be an IT worker. Except in Philly, obviously.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    I listened to the tape back in Feb or March when it made the rounds. Yes, the initial Officer who stopped him just kind of "stepped all over himself" (IMHO), but Mr. F, the open-carrier, , had he been polite, compliant with the officers demands, while still verbally stating that he was not breaking the law, might not find himself facing charges, and he would not look (or sound) like a guy with a chip on his shoulder.
    There's no need to be compliant if no laws have been broken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    LEO's, every day they strap on the belt & gun, potentially put their lives on the line for innocent civilians (us). Whether the LEO's be the consumate professional or the most comical-sad buffoon, they are still doing, however well or poorly, a job that is dangerous and they deserve us being obedient and thoughtful in our interactions with them. After the fact, if a grievance can't be settled over a cup of coffee, there will always be time to file a complaint if needed once heads have cooled.
    WRONG! It is never okay to be obedient to a police officer, just because they're a police officer. Especially if the officer in question is like the absolute brute that dealt with Mark Fiorino. Be obedient and thoughtful? Hardly. Officers need to be thoughtful and respectful to the people they're dealing with, even if they're mass murderers. I can't believe the attitudes of some the people here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    However, my perspective comes from a personal history that includes LEO's and their departments that were honorable and professional. Mr. F has already had numerous run-ins with the Philly PD, I guess you can look at it from the point-of-view that says, "how many chances do you give them to get it right?" I still think that Mr. F's point would have been made more clearly and with less personal long-term fuss had he followed the SGT's directives.
    The only point he would have proven is that the Philly PD has carte blanche to behave however they like, regardless of the law.

    Wowo, I really can't believe some of you people. Next, people here will be saying that I don't need an AR15 for home defense, or that it's okay if the police enter and search my home without a warrant, and if I refuse, I deserve to get arrested. Absolutely sickening. Where's the "dislike" button?

    Quote Originally Posted by K9Buck View Post
    If I saw some dude walking around with a handgun openly strapped around his waist it would concern me and, prior to my knowing the open-carry concept, would probably have been on the phone calling 911 if I had been walking the streets of Philly and encountered this guy.
    Then you're part of the problem.
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  9. #24
    VIP Member Array Guns and more's Avatar
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    Philadelphia Police Say They Won't Look the Other Way on Open-Carry Gun Owners
    May I just tell the truth?
    Philadelphia is the biggest dump in the country.
    The cops are above the law, if they even know or care about the law.
    The citizens mostly have a scam of their own.
    It's the only city where I've been panhandled on EVERY block.
    It's the only city where my rental car was broken into within 1/2 hour of leaving the rental car lot.

    I'll visit Detroit 10 times before I'll set foot in Philly.
    So, Philly cops......do whatever you want, the citizens got the government they deserve.

  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    K9Buck/Shadow38: Welcome to the forum. I think you will like it here--the threads are often quite interesting and most folks here are polite and respectful to one-another. I learn quite a bit from folks here.

    Mr. Hill: I guess that we will just have to agree to respectfully disagree on these points. If Mark was trying to make a point and "out" the Philly PD for their bully attitudes (which does seem to be a legitimate problem), his point would have been better made by being compliant with the bullying officer--that way, the civil authorities would not have had ANY kind of comeback towards him that would muddy the waters of his point about them being bullies. IF he had been compliant, it would have clearly and without question shown the responding officer for the bully he apparetnly is.

    I agree whole-heartedly that the responding officer was way out of line here. But, and I think its an important "but", Law Enforcement Officers reasonably expect compliance with directies given by an officer. (my guess is that there is a basis for this expectation in the laws themselves--but don't know any specifics) If you resist, even if polite, it automatically raises the emotional stakes in the game. This is more true of male civilian versus male LEO encounters--I think it comes from our testosterone--we both get an attitude, both the civialian and the LEO. Things tend to slide downhill from there. The problem with a ******* contest is that both sides end up wet and stinking. But, I am not trying to convince you sir, just attempting to clarify my point.

    I will, however, take a moment to defend K9Buck--if you read his post, he admitted that he is new to the gun world and is readjusting his world-view about these things, so maybe we could cut him some slack here......

    Peace!!
    Last edited by Chaplain Scott; May 23rd, 2011 at 11:24 AM. Reason: typos
    Scott, US Army 1974-2004

    Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
    - Ronald Reagan

  11. #26
    Member Array K9Buck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by William Hill View Post
    Then you're part of the problem.
    Am I? I've always been sympathetic to and in agreement with gun rights and just bought one myself. I shared accounts given to me by police officers of citizens calling 911 upon seeing an individual walking around with a gun. I shared accounts of other gun owners stating it is not worth the hassle they have to endure when carrying their gun in the open. And then, we have this article here where a Philadelphia police sergeant, of all people, didn't know the law.

    Based on what I'm hearing it seems to me the gun lobby could and should be doing more to educate the masses in open-carry jurisdictions. That may not be true in places like Montana but, as evidenced by this article, it might be prudent in places like Philadelphia.

  12. #27
    Ex Member Array William Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaplain Scott View Post
    Mr. Hill: I guess that we will just have to agree to respectfully disagree on these points. If Mark was trying to make a point and "out" the Philly PD for their bully attitudes (which does seem to be a legitimate problem), his point would have been better made by being compliant with the bullying officer--that way, the civil authorities would not have had ANY kind of comeback towards him that would muddy the waters of his point about them being bullies. IF he had been compliant, it would have clearly and without question shown the responding officer for the bully he apparetnly is.

    I agree whole-heartedly that the responding officer was way out of line here. But, and I think its an important "but", Law Enforcement Officers reasonably expect compliance with directies given by an officer. (my guess is that there is a basis for this expectation in the laws themselves--but don't know any specifics) If you resist, even if polite, it automatically raises the emotional stakes in the game. This is more true of male civilian versus male LEO encounters--I think it comes from our testosterone--we both get an attitude, both the civialian and the LEO. Things tend to slide downhill from there. The problem with a ******* contest is that both sides end up wet and stinking. But, I am not trying to convince you sir, just attempting to clarify my point.

    I will, however, take a moment to defend K9Buck--if you read his post, he admitted that he is new to the gun world and is readjusting his world-view about these things, so maybe we could cut him some slack here......

    Peace!!
    I'm of the opinion that if Mr. Fiorino had complied, the responding officers would still have acted like animals. I say this due to my own experinces with them, and the experiences many others who I know personally have had with them.

    My issue with your post was your statement that officers deserve our "obedience", more than anything else you said. No one in this country is owed obedience; that's antithetical to our cuntry's core values, especially when it comes to governmental authorities. This mindset is what led to gun confiscations during Hurricane Katrina, what led to the ban of open carry in CA, what lead to the Supreme Court of Indiana's decision to give police the ability to violate the 4th Amendment, what led to the Sullivan Act of NY, and what will lead to an eventual police state, where obedience to an officer's demands, whether lawful or not, is expected by al subjects. Anyone not showing obedience may be shot on sight.

    The excuse of the Philly PD, that the officers didn't know the law, is a blatant lie. the MPOTEC was distributed throughout PA in early 2009; all LEO in PA are required to read it yearly, before than can go on patrol. And, once again, even if the Sergeant didn't know the law, ignorance of the law is no excuse to break the law. Open carry is not RAS; there are multiple court decisions in PA alone that have settled that.

    If an officer feels like he's being slighted by a private citizen, that person has no business wearing a uniform. When you're on patrol, you leave your precious ego home. If your feelings are so fragile that a man who politely refuses an unlawful request cause you to draw a gun on him, you not only have no business wearing a uniform, you need to be arrested, and have a psychological examination. If I told my wife to make me a damn sandwich because I thought it was her job, and she said no, and I pulled a gun on her for refusing me politely, I'd not only go to jail, I'd lose my eight to carry a gun permanently.

    I've had to deal with police. Most of my dealings have been great, but a few, not so much. In each of those cases, I never showed obedience to anyone, nor did I ever comply to an unlawful demand. The onyl difference is, I didn't have the foresight to carry a recording device. I'm not looking for a payday, I don't have a chip on my shoulder. I just expect a person with a badge to uphold the law.

  13. #28
    Ex Member Array William Hill's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by K9Buck View Post
    Am I? I've always been sympathetic to and in agreement with gun rights and just bought one myself. I shared accounts given to me by police officers of citizens calling 911 upon seeing an individual walking around with a gun. I shared accounts of other gun owners stating it is not worth the hassle they have to endure when carrying their gun in the open. And then, we have this article here where a Philadelphia police sergeant, of all people, didn't know the law.

    Based on what I'm hearing it seems to me the gun lobby could and should be doing more to educate the masses in open-carry jurisdictions. That may not be true in places like Montana but, as evidenced by this article, it might be prudent in places like Philadelphia.
    You said if you saw someone open carrying, you'd call the police. In other words, if you saw someone who was doing nothing but walk around armed, you'd call the police on him. If you saw him walking a dog, pushing a stroller with a baby in it, carrying groceries to his car, all while armed, you'd call the police. Yes, you were part of the problem. Maybe not now, since you know it's legal, but you were. The mindest that anyone who's armed is a threat, and should be reported to the authorities, is a problem. This is no different than calling the police because you saw a black man walking through a white neighborhood, which I hope most people here think is ridiculous.

    I hate to sound like an activist, because I don't like activists, but it's becoming clear to me that open carry is a necessity, more than ever.
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  14. #29
    Member Array K9Buck's Avatar
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    William, is it open-carry in your jurisdiction? If so, do you open-carry? Have you ever had an issue because of it?

  15. #30
    Senior Member Array adric22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IWLAFART View Post

    That is the thing. I have never seen a bad guy carrying openly because they won't wear a belt and it will make their pants fall down to their ankles.
    You know, I've often suspected the wardrobe you are describing also makes it impossible to carry a weapon concealed as well. In fact, I find the whole thing rather amusing. I don't feel the least bit threatened by guys who let their pants hang down like that. Even in a physical confrontation that doesn't involve guns or knives, how well can somebody fight while trying to keep their pants from falling to their knees?
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