Philadelphia Police Say They Won't Look the Other Way on Open-Carry Gun Owners

[William Hill]

I foud this on another forum. It's funny, but it's related.

A primer.
Welcome intrepid traveler/new Philadelphian/shore-bound dawdler, to our fair city.
Chances are, you've heard some bad things about this first-class city. http://forum.pafoa.org/open-carry-144/108570-ppd-strikes-again-confiscates-weapon-because-i-refused-conceal.html"]Seriously[/URL] http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/110462-philadelphia-woman-hears-knock-shows-shes-armed-police-confiscate-gun.html"]Really bad[/URL]. Maybe now you're beginning to regret your decision. "They'll take my guns," you think. "I could be SHOT. By CRIMINALS. Or POLICE. Or CRIMINAL POLICE. And then be http://forum.pafoa.org/philadelphia-4/128236-another-flash-mob.html"]FLASH MOBBED[/URL], but not the operatic[/URL] kind[/URL]!"
Yes, we do have some problems. There are (Surprise!) criminals that mar our fair city. And as PA's only 'City of the First Class', there are some additional things you have to keep in mind. But first thing's first! If you're visiting, there's loads to take in. If you're moving here, you're http://forum.pafoa.org/philadelphia-4/101324-philadelphia-county-members.html"]not alone[/URL]. Some of us even like it here. If you're passing through... Sit down, stay a while! We won't bite! (Unless you ask. Nicely. On Delaware Ave. That's what they call 'consensual'. And filthy, you pervert. Ick.)

The Law
Now, about those laws. As a "City of the First Class", there are some additional restrictions on carrying in the city. Unlike the rest of Pennsylvania, you need a license to carry in Philadelphia regardless of whether you're doing so concealed or openly. http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/PA/18/II/G/61/A/6108/carrying-firearms-on-public-streets-or-public-property-in-philadelphia/"]18 Pa.C.S. § 6108[/URL] is the relevant statute you need to pay attention to.
Additionally, Philadelphia has http://legislation.phila.gov/attachments/11108.pdf"]attempted[/URL] to close what it terms the 'Florida loophole', and now legally prohibits Pennsylvanians from carrying in Philadelphia with licenses from other states. This is in flagrant violation of the http://reference.pafoa.org/statutes/PA/18/II/G/61/A/6120/limitation-on-the-regulation-of-firearms-and-ammunition/"]Uniform Firearms Act[/URL], and would probably not stand up in court. Philadelphia City Council sometimes does stupid, symbolic things. This wastes our tax dollars, but sometimes we prefer they do stupid, symbolic things than things that actually matter like taking on stunning amounts of debt for pet projects performed by blood relations or beating one another up on the council floor[/URL]*.
One more thing. Philadelphia is officially allergic to what it terms 'cutting weapons', as per http://www.phila.gov/philacode/html/_data/title10/CHAPTER_10_800_SAFETY/10_820_Cutting_Weapons_in_Publ.html"]§10-820[/URL]. Technically, this means you shouldn't be carrying a Leatherman, Swiss Army Knife, or http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-open-carry-121/133918-what-laws-carrying-knife-philly.html"]flip knife[/URL], unless it is being actively used in your 'trade, profession, or calling'. Practically, people openly carry utility knives in Philadelphia all the time and are never detained, much less fined $300 and imprisoned for 90 days. At worst, it stands a chance of being something you get charged with if you can't be charged with being 'in contempt of cop'.
As a general rule of thumb, you can carry in Philadelphia anywhere it's http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-open-carry-121/7582-read-first-where-you-can-cannot-carry-weapons-state-pennsylvania.html"]legal to carry in Pennsylvania[/URL]. Don't be surprised if you attract attention from the police if you choose to do so openly.

How to Get a License to Carry Firearms in Philadelphia
You need to go to 990 Spring Garden Street, though the entrance[/URL] is in the back. They're open from 8:30 AM to 2:00 PM, Monday through Friday, except holidays and December 20th through January 3rd. There will very likely be a line, so show up early and take something to read. You will need to take:

• The http://www.phillypolice.com/assets/docs/PPD-Form.Firearm-License-Application.pdf"]application[/URL] filled out in ink, not pencil
• Two completed reference sheets filled out in ink by non family members
• A valid, current Pennsylvania state-issued ID
• One 2inch by 2inch passport photo
• Two proofs of residence such as utility bills and bank statements. No, junkmail or birthday cards don't count.
• A money order for $20, payable to 'The City of Philadelphia'

They will interview you. They may be rude, and they may sit you down and make you wait for 25 minutes while they grab some lunch. They may grill you about unpaid parking tickets (which, in Philadelphia, can constitute reason to deny you a LTCF). As long as you're pleasant and straightforward, you shouldn't run into any problems. They will fingerprint you. This is very likely also a violation of the UFA.

Things to Do
Alright, I'll be honest. All those links up there? The ones about grandmothers having their guns and licenses taken away, about unnecessary detainment, about dirty cops selling heroine, and about opera singers wantonly bursting out into song without warning or provocation? That was just to scare people away. Even now, people who read no further than the "PPD Strikes Again" link are angrily mashing the "Reply Now" button to froth at the keyboard about how much Philthadelphia stinks** and you'll never catch them dead here.
That's okay, gentle reader. That leaves more for us.
Yes, all those things are stupid. Yes, bad things happen, and they're easier to hear about in a big city than in a small town. But you don't http://gallery.andrewshemo.com/firearm-activism/open-carry-rally-in-philadelphia/572215"]change things[/URL] by avoiding them entirely, and Philadelphia has a lot to offer.
Places it's okay to carry:

• Academy of Music
• Academy of Natural Sciences
• Art Museum
• Eastern State Penitentiary
• Franklin Institute
• Franklin Square
• Kimmel Center
• Mutter Museum
• Please Touch Museum
• Rittenhouse Square
• Race Street Pier Park
• Schuylkill River park & trail
• The Zoo

Places that you need to check your firearm.

• Philadelphia courts
• http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-carry-145/112215-my-citizens-bank-park-phillies-firearms-check-encounter-tonight-w-ppd-9-22-10-a.html"]Phillies games[/URL])
• http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-open-carry-121/122796-carrying-wells-fargo-center.html"]Flyers & 76ers games [/URL]

Places you probably shouldn't carry:

• http://forum.pafoa.org/concealed-carry-145/97410-cops-called-after-i-checked-my-firearm-emergency-room.html"]Hospitals might be troublesome[/URL]
• Universities

Places to Eat & Drink
There are a LOT of places to eat in Philadelphia. Here's a select few:

• Just about anywhere in 'http://www.phillymag.com/restaurants/the_philly_mag_50/index.html"]Top 50[/URL]'
• Reading Terminal Market (Especially DiNics, and get a cannoli at Termini Brothers). Also good for getting fruits, vegetables, cheese, and meat.
• Picanha (all you can eat, BYOB, better and cheaper than Fogo de Chao)
• Eulogy (gigantic Belgian beer selection)
• Monk's (big Belgian beer selection, great mussels)
• Paesano's (great sandwiches)
• Lorenzo & Son's on South Street (cheap pizza by the slice)
• Franklin Fountain (Fantastic ice cream)
• Italian Market. Get here early enough on the weekends and you can get plenty of good fruits, vegetables, cheeses, meat, and fresh pasta.
• Tiffin (Indian)
• La Veracruzana (Cheap, authentic Mexican food. Maybe more authentic than you're angling for)

Getting Around
Driving isn't your only option. Philadelphia is very walking-friendly, cycling friendly, and the remainder can be filled in by SEPTA. It's not always reliable, but it's often better than parking.
http://www.google.com/transit"]Google Transit[/URL] can usually figure out what routes you need to take. Fares are $2 if you pay as you get on (and make sure and carry exact change, SEPTA employees often won't make change for you) or $1.55 if you get tokens. Tokens are available at major stations such as 30th Street, Suburban Station, and Market East, as well as some vendors around the city. A complete list can be found http://www.septa.org/sales/"]here[/URL]. You can also get an unlimited ride passes for http://www.septa.org/fares/pass/independence.html"]individuals and families[/URL].

I'll update this post as other things come up. Feel free to reply with suggestions. Philadelphia bashers, keep it constructive. Enjoy!
-chivalrouscarry
* For the record, we elected the winner of that fight mayor. See, survival of the fittest! You like that, right?
** For the record, that funny smell is New Jersey.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Mjodr]

Where are you moving to in MT? We have a number of folks here on DC from MT.

The Kalispell area. Next week I am going up for the first time as a visit/scouting trip.

[luvmy40]

I'm sorry but the officer(tongue firmly in cheek) was wrong from the word go. I would have simple ignored him. My name isn't Junior. There is no reason in the world why I should be expected to respond to it. "Excuse me Sir" or even just "excuse me" would get the job done. Hell, "Hey Bub" is more acceptable than "Junior" called out in an obviously antagonistic voice.

[nightsonge]

YouTube - ‪SHOCKING AUDIO: Philadelphia Police violate rights of open carrier at gunpoint‬‏

Here's a working link

[ksholder]

Sounds like the Philadelphia PD is doing it out of retaliation because they made to look stupid. This was obviously a training issue within the department, his rights were violated, and they are a bunch of sore losers. I hope the judge throws it out of court and awards him with compensation.

Philadelphia - Another city in which I "will never live".

Nobody needed to make them look stupid, they did that themselves. When the only adjective you know starts with "f" and rhymes with duck, you don't need help to look stupid. After listening to the tape, one has to wonder two things: 1. what is the education level required to be a Philly cop and 2. on which side of the badge are the thugs in Philly anyway.

[TN_Mike]

I think the Philly Police may end up paying a lot of money to gun owners unless they change their attitude.

[packinnova]

Nobody needed to make them look stupid, they did that themselves. When the only adjective you know starts with "f" and rhymes with duck, you don't need help to look stupid. After listening to the tape, one has to wonder two things: 1. what is the education level required to be a Philly cop and 2. on which side of the badge are the thugs in Philly anyway.

Well, for starters they did import their Commissioner(aka Ramsey the Great) from the District of Crime. That should say enough...

[GunGeezer]

When the citizens of any state joke about and tolerate illegal behavior by police who are entrusted to keep us safe, I think it prudent to ask the question, who's going to keep us safe from the police? Since when did we become a society who pick and choose which laws they will obey and which they will ignore? Since when did police place themselves above the law? Perhaps they've been taking a page from the play book of Congress and the POTUS or can we all just say, if it isn't the law, it should be!

[JEC]

This is what myself, and people like Mark Fiorino are trying to illustrate. I want to go on record as saying, that I have a deep respect for anyone who runs towards danger for a living, whether they're law enforcement, military, or other emergency personnel. I have many friends who serve in all these capacities, and it angers me when someone else dishonors the job they've decided to take on. It's not a case of me arbitrarily being disrespectful to LEO. You've pretty much hit it on the head: this is a long standing problem in Philly; the police force has always been rife with corruption and police abuses, including the bombing of the Osage house. 1985, the Philadelphia Police dropped a mixture of civilian and military explosives on a "home-made" wood bunker, built on the roof of the Osage Avenue house occupied by members of the MOVE organization. The bomb ignited several barrels of gasoline starting a fire which destroyed the entire block, leaving 250 people homeless, and killed eleven people.

In 2010, officer Robert Ralston, a 21 year veteran of the PPD shot himself in the shoulder at 4:00 AM on April the 5th and claimed that he had been shot by one of two African Americans who he claimed had fled the scene. His statements resulted in a massive manhunt including SWAT personnel. After being confronted with evidence showing that he had shot himself and was offered immunity he confirmed that the wound was self inflicted. As of June 2010 Ralston had been fired after being placed on paid leave following the admission. He was never charged with anything, by the way.

Recently, it was discovered that there was a burglary ring operating within the police department. Many of those officers were also discovered to be involved in drug trafficking and extortion, as well as racketeering. This isn't an isolated case; it's been going on for decades, and nearly every one who lives in Philly knows about it. Is it any wonder that not only criminals fear them, but law abiding citizens? When the people who are paid to protect you are as bad as the criminals they've sworn to fight, you 're left with little options but to be disgusted by them.

In essence, the Philly PD is the East Coasts equivalent to the LAPD. I only go into Philly when I need to , like visit my younger brother, and I make it clear how much I don't want to be there. I don't put any money into that city if I can help it.

Soon to be seen on an episode of Gangland "The PPD"
I refuse to go near that wasteland known as "Philthydelphia" for many reasons, not the least of which is my lack of confidence in that city's version of law enforcement.

[yale]

We are all sheepdogs and we're all on the side of the law.

I am not a sheepdog. I am a law abiding citizen who carries a gun for my personal protection. I am not responsible for any other citizen who, for whatever reason, has decided not to arm themselves to provide for their own defense.

[yale]

In my opinion most cops are just trying to make it home without getting shot.

Well, heck, So Am I.

[BigFish]

In my opinion most cops are just trying to make it home without getting shot.

I won't argue that isn't the case, but its obvious too many cops think they make the rules and anybody they encounter has to follow what they say, immediately. Their right to make it home at night doesn't trump the rights of everyone else. There's too many incidents of violent escalation to say that there isn't a bigger problem here. If I'm not breaking the law, not running away but not complying with a request that I don't legally have to comply with, that doesn't justify any escalation on the officers part. It is bullying, and people are sick of it.

[Mr B]

Am I? I've always been sympathetic to and in agreement with gun rights and just bought one myself. I shared accounts given to me by police officers of citizens calling 911 upon seeing an individual walking around with a gun. I shared accounts of other gun owners stating it is not worth the hassle they have to endure when carrying their gun in the open. And then, we have this article here where a Philadelphia police sergeant, of all people, didn't know the law.

Based on what I'm hearing it seems to me the gun lobby could and should be doing more to educate the masses in open-carry jurisdictions. That may not be true in places like Montana but, as evidenced by this article, it might be prudent in places like Philadelphia.

The gun lobby could probably do more to educate the masses, but its not the gun lobbys job to educate the police about the laws that they should already know about and should be inforcing, instead of violating peoples right for no reason.
I personally would not open carry, but if i did i would have no problem showing a police officer my ccw license if asked, but i would not lay on the ground for any reason especially if i have not broken any laws.

[TedBeau]

Did we listen to the same tape? The kid was polite, but not subservient. The LEO was rude, foul-mouthed, unreasonable, and ignorant of the law. Totally out of line.

I remember listening to the tape, and while it appears the civilian did not immediately comply with the original officers request, he also made it clear on the tape that the officer was pointing his gun at the civilian. The officer seems to have been overly aggressive and most likley violated departmental policy by drawing and aiming his weapon without reasonable cause.
I will also admit that the civilian knew that sooner or later this was going to happen and he is obviously pushing the issue in order to either get it into the news or a court room, so in effect he got was he was after. Should he have to do this, not really, but he made a concious decsion, and wsa prepared for the outcome, re the running tape recorder.
Is he a gun rights hero or an agitator? Thats what history books are for.

[mel]

Just wondering if there is an update, I couldn't find anything online with a quick search, but I would be very interested in finding out how this turns out. Listening to the tape, I find it hard to believe that police would treat or interact with people by calling them junior, very rude.