If it is legal, why the hassle?

This is a discussion on If it is legal, why the hassle? within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; It's the Philly arguement all over again. "Open Carriers may be 'inconveinenced' by local LEOs when OC'ing"...

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  1. #16
    Member Array GhostRed7's Avatar
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    It's the Philly arguement all over again. "Open Carriers may be 'inconveinenced' by local LEOs when OC'ing"
    "Sir, could you please not bleed so much? I have to clean the store after they haul you off and I'd like the rest of my shift, to be, like, you know, better."

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  3. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by GhostRed7 View Post
    It's the Philly arguement all over again. "Open Carriers may be 'inconveinenced' by local LEOs when OC'ing"
    Smile, and inconvenience the "Phillistine LEOs" to death. Make it a point to schedule in some "inconvenience" time into your day.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
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  4. #18
    Senior Member Array ep1953's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockBottom View Post
    Open carry is legal in my state also, however the vast majority of people don't do it. People who do choose to open carry stand out and draw attention to themselves. The only way that police know that they are carrying legally is to stop them and ask them. I avoid that hassle by carrying concealed.
    While that is true, RB, the only way the police would know you're legal to drive is to pull you over and ask to see a DL and insurance. As far as I know, they must have some other reason to stop you first. It should be the same with the gun. If you ain't doing nothing IL-LEGAL then they have no reason to ask in my opinion.
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  5. #19
    VIP Member Array TN_Mike's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mel View Post
    I live in Minnesota and while open carry is legal with your permit, I don't see it very much. My question to all of you is this:

    There are only 7 states that don't allow open carry, and there are a mess of them that will allow it if you have a CCW permit. If it is legal why do the law enforcement officers in the cities and states actively suppress the rights of the individual knowing full well that they are in violation of the laws of their state?


    This is very disturbing. I was always taught that if I follow the law I don't have to worry. I was also taught that ignorance of the law is not an excuse.
    there are several reasons in my opinion.

    One being that a lot of police officers are taught in the academy that anyone who has a gun and isn't a cop is automatically a bad guy. That's what they tried to teach us in the City of Mobile Alabama Police Academy. I pointed out to the instructor that a lot of people have their permits and go through a background check before getting it so that should at least elevate them above scum bag status and I was verbally squashed for suggesting that anyone with a gun who wasn't a cop could be someone that could be trusted.

    Another reason is, a lot of police officers do not know the laws that pertain to someone carrying openly or concealed very well. This comes from them not having to deal with them much. Cops deal with drunks, druggies, people who assault other folks, rapists, robbers, and a ton of other assorted criminals on a much more regular basis that they ever do with people who are legally carrying. As a result, the laws that they have to deal with and think about most often are the ones they have the most detailed knowledge of. Same with anyone in their own line of work, what ever you have to do repeatedly for your job is what you are going to know the most about.

    There are lots of cops out there who are not gun people. Believe it or not but most cops view the gun they carry on duty as just another piece of equipment that they have to carry to do their job. And most cops do not shoot nearly as much nor as well as most of us here. I have known several cops who fired their guns once or twice a year and that was just to re-qualify.

    There are lots of reasons that cops react the way that they do to open carry.
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  6. #20
    Distinguished Member Array onacoma's Avatar
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    The reason has been building for over 40 years as our educational system has been an indoctrinating center for the young sheeples. Transforming them into the new castrati! They tell them that they don't need a weapon for protection as we are civilized and the world thinks just like us! Of course none of these indoctrinators have ventured outside the US and Europe! I've lived in the Middle East when I was young, Viet Nam at 18, worked in Mexico, Canada, and Russia. They do not think likes us and live has a different value! The new LEs have gone through the indoctrinating and they have "You don't need no stinking guns! We'll protect you!" Only BGs have guns! Old hand like Massad Ayoob are few and far between.

    I see this in my six children, 21 grandchildren, and 9 great! I have purchased every one of my grandchildren a copy of the Federalist Paper, the Constitution (Without the disclaimer!), and books written by the founding fathers. Some get it; other I'm afraid are to far gone to be anything but sheeple!

    As our Republic is under attack one of my favorite quotes by Ben Franklin is in my signature.
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  7. #21
    Distinguished Member Array ArkhmAsylm's Avatar
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    FYI - In Minnesota, OC is only legal with a permit.

    My thoughts are that some jurisdictions may feel that they may have liabilities if someone calls to report a 'man with a gun', they don't respond, & something illegal occurs. Others (cough, cough, Minneapolis, cough) may have orders from their superiors to lean heavily on those who attempt to excercise this right simply because they disagree with the legislators who wrote the carry law - nevermind that it would certainly seem that they are obligated to uphold such a law based on their place in the hierarchy of the state's legal system.

    These are just my thoughts on the subject & please note that I have no direct background or actual experience in these matters. I don't play a lawyer on TV or otherwise.

    I do not plan on partaking in OC unless involved with a political protest or a carry event where OC is the focus...or I feel the need to do so on my own property as a protective measure. Kudos to those who would choose to do so.
    "Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)

  8. #22
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    Nothing wrong with op - but if you look different your gonna get noticed and since few carry openly these days - it sticks out. With crazies every where your gonna gets some looks - maybe even a question or two. If you think about it - how many times you been questioned while carrying when you are dressed in hunting gear and you smell like doe urine. Anything out of the "ordinary" raises questions these days.
    Great privilege comes with great responsibility.

  9. #23
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    911 call ; "man with a stick" , we better go check him out that he doesn't plan to beat anyone with it.

    Think about it..... " a man with a gun call" ... what's the circumstances ? Open carry, about 99% chance he's legally carrying it and legal to own it. Is he pointing it at someone ? Then, you might want to go to the call.
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  10. #24
    Senior Member Array SFury's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbr View Post
    Nothing wrong with op - but if you look different your gonna get noticed and since few carry openly these days - it sticks out. With crazies every where your gonna gets some looks - maybe even a question or two. If you think about it - how many times you been questioned while carrying when you are dressed in hunting gear and you smell like doe urine. Anything out of the "ordinary" raises questions these days.
    Honestly, if I were dressed in camo smelling like doe urine here in Wisconsin I doubt anyone would care. Outside of Madison and Milwaukee that is.

    Anywhere else and they just give you a wide berth because most people don't like the smell of doe urine.

    Now, openly carrying a gun here, which is 100% legal without a permit will get the sheeple to call the cops on me. I doubt I'd make it 2 blocks before the cops got called as I walked my dogs with a gun on my hip. Would I get arrested, or a ticket? I might where I live, but I shouldn't. The sheeple are afraid of things they do not understand.

    You know what's amazing in Wisconsin? My only form of legal SD will be CC when it passes. I'm banned from owning mace and tasers. This state has some serious flaws when it comes to self protection.

  11. #25
    Member Array RockBottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ep1953 View Post
    While that is true, RB, the only way the police would know you're legal to drive is to pull you over and ask to see a DL and insurance. As far as I know, they must have some other reason to stop you first. It should be the same with the gun. If you ain't doing nothing IL-LEGAL then they have no reason to ask in my opinion.
    That's true. But until open carry is as commonplace as people driving cars, the person who is open carrying is still going to attract attention. I understand your opinion and I don't necessarily disagree with you. There are lots of things that police do that I don't agree with (pretty much ignoring speed limits being one of them).

  12. #26
    Distinguished Member Array orangevol's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RockBottom View Post
    Open carry is legal in my state also, however the vast majority of people don't do it. People who do choose to open carry stand out and draw attention to themselves. The only way that police know that they are carrying legally is to stop them and ask them. I avoid that hassle by carrying concealed.
    RockBottom...I have to disagree with your statement. I often open carry here in SW TN and have only been asked by a couple of people what department I work for, I politely tell them I'm not a policeman and have a TN handgun carry permit. I have carried in the presence of Memphis Police officers and my hometown (suburb) PD with no hassles or issues. I find people are more receptive of open carry based on your overall appearance as much as anything.
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  13. #27
    Member Array RockBottom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orangevol View Post
    RockBottom...I have to disagree with your statement. I often open carry here in SW TN and have only been asked by a couple of people what department I work for, I politely tell them I'm not a policeman and have a TN handgun carry permit. I have carried in the presence of Memphis Police officers and my hometown (suburb) PD with no hassles or issues. I find people are more receptive of open carry based on your overall appearance as much as anything.
    Feel free to disagree. Leonard Embody open carried in Brentwood. Where did that get him? There are a lot of variables...your appearance, the particular officer you are dealing with, where and what you are carrying, etc. I said once before that I've seen one person open carrying where I live. At the time, I didn't have a permit and wasn't really involved with guns. Based on his appearance, I assumed he was an off duty cop. I really didn't give it a second thought. But, while I didn't give it a second thought, that doesn't mean that everyone else (including LEO's) would have the same reaction.

    I just avoid all the drama by carrying concealed.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    There's probably some kind of myopia whereby the advocates of OC imagine that the only people who would do it are people who are exactly like them.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  15. #29
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    Police are the good guys that have guns, only other people that have guns are bad guys, handguns are only used for killing people so anyone not a cop that has a gun is a murderer. This is the doctrine that has been pushed on this country for about a century now.

    If you go to Alaska the LEOs will readily tell you, "everyone has a gun up here" and it's common place and not a second thought, just don't bring it into the post office. In Alaska you could easily have only one LEO for thousands of miles and a response time of days, the ability to self sustain and protect yourself from wildlife and humans is a responsibility accepted by many. Travel south along the coast and you will soon hit a state where most response times fall within under an hour and the prevailing social mantra is if anything bad happens to you it's up to the police to protect you, you should be allowed to carry a weapon and if someone wants to rape or kill you, you can talk to them until the police show up; here responsibility is not accepted but rather deferred. Mind you, the police are not obligated to protect you, only the public at large

    Nobody wants the responsibility, nobody wants the liability and you don't have to accept it if you're not allowed to have it. And if we take away the right that comes second only to freedom of speech religion and press, that shall not be infringed; then people wont have to worry about guns because they'll just all go away. Take a look at the states as you already have and you'll see that the laws still favor out of sight out of mind, and when less than 20% of the population carries openly or concealed and where both are legal the vast majority are carrying concealed, and you soon see that it's something people don't want to think about because they don't want to be reminded about the personal responsibility of self preservation. The thought of taking care of oneself is almost alien at this point in time as far as mainstream philosophy goes. And do take note that these are all emotive arguments against carrying and open carrying, when you look at it statistically over the last 50 years, the more people that are allowed to carry the lower the crime rate goes, the fewer incidents there are and more good guys survive. I don't have the link handy but there are some great gun fact websites that people link to on this board that are just full of empirical data that refutes the emotive arguments.

    Yes, it would be nice for a thread like this to be just like the currently running bullet proof vest thread, where the responses are "In the summer carrying outside the pants is more comfortable than carrying inside the pants but in the winter it's the other way around" to me the thought of open vs concealed carry should come near the level of thought of am I tucking in my shirt or letting it hang out today, it's a mood and comfort and balance of the situation and causally there's no reason to conceal, around the house the Glock is almost always in the OWB holster with an untucked shirt kinda bunched up around it. However as an adult I can look at the world around me and clearly see that the rest of the world could not fathom me being responsible for making sure I get home in one piece everyday, so in public unless I'm in a situation where I know open carry will be accepted without a second thought, I don't do it because there's going to be a MWAG call and frankly I think the police have more important things to be doing in this town, and if they're out hassling the bad guys instead of me then maybe that's one more actual mugger, assaulter, robber, murder, methhead, probation violator or drug dealer that they've got time to respond to or proactively seek out and get off the streets making it that much more likely the only place my Glock needs to be shot is at the range. Many of us here have in one manner or another developed the exposure and socialization needed to ascertain a certain degree of comfort in the presence of firearms (heck if the right handgun is OC'ed I bet some here would need to wipe the drool from the corner of their mouth); however while people see guns on TV every night and in the movies every weekend, they've been largely kept out of sight in public and that's prevented the large scale socialization needed for people to view them as what they are and not as evil monsters they're made out to be through myth.

    There was a statement earlier in this thread about a gun being nothing more than a tool, and to a large extent I agree with the tool mentality, there's no need to use it most of the time, but when I need it, I NEED IT, there is no going and digging it out of the tool box, it's like having a spare tire and small compressor in your trunk, if you're away from home and away from immediate help, you can handle the situation and get yourself to safety; it's a tool. The same can be said for a fire extinguisher, I know the procedure and put it where it's handy and hope I never need it (and statistically I'll need the handgun 5 times for home invasions before I need an extinguisher for a house fire) but when I need it I need it within seconds and need to employ it quickly in order to prevent my house office or car from burning up. A gun is a tool, and when I need it, I need it to increase my odds of living.

    Oh and in WI you can have pepper spray, it just needs to be more diluted than Tabasco sauce, and they do carry such a weak variety at Gander Mtn. stores in WI.

    Sorry for the long read, hopefully it was worth it.
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  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mel View Post
    ... If it is legal why do the law enforcement officers in the cities and states actively suppress the rights of the individual knowing full well that they are in violation of the laws of their state?...
    IMO -

    To keep the herd calm and going about their day grazing in an orderly manner.

    I've gathered from some LEO interactions that even though if OC is legal [pending jurisdiction/preemption status], their interpretation is that once it [the guns existence] creates a disturbance or a sheep becomes scared, then there is a law infraction taking place called disturbing the peace.

    Corrective measures [that will never happen]

    911 operators asking simple intelligent questions as previous examples given.

    LEO education/training/reminders that responding to an MWAG call albeit irritating, is better than responding to a domestic or a mean drunk. For the love of the gods, once the "all clear" is given over the radio, the other 10 LEOs in transit can return to their previous activities - READ - They don't need to show up on scene creating more of a disturbance, and causing more panic among the sheep.
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    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

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