Not sure how I feel about this - Page 2

Not sure how I feel about this

This is a discussion on Not sure how I feel about this within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Personally, I feel that this situation doesn't provide a reason for the OP not to OC. If anything, it proves that officers are responders and ...

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  1. #16
    Senior Member Array Lotus222's Avatar
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    Personally, I feel that this situation doesn't provide a reason for the OP not to OC. If anything, it proves that officers are responders and not crime preventive. Yes, most of us do already know this. I feel the officer handled the MWAG call pretty professionally. He detained the gun, checked your papers, gave it back. The lecture was just his personal opinion. You don't have to agree with it, and personally, I don't. Would CC have helped the situation? It would have prevented a MWAG call. Anything else that could potentially happen or already happened relating to your OCing is all speculation. Contrary to others statements, I don't feel that you got involved in this altercation in any way, and if I am reading correctly, you didn't have a gun on your hip until the altercation had dispersed due to an officers presence. I feel people like yourself are helping to preserve our rights to carry by not hiding the fact that ordinary people carry guns - not just officers of the law.

    Glad your crappy neighbors are getting evicted, too.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey2011 View Post



    Huh? He wasn't involved in the fight, nor did he go outside during the fight. He called the cops and everyone scattered when they showed up. He said the incident with the neighbor was a few hours later. At no point was a gun introduced into a fist fight. Basically what you did was make a conclusion without fully comprehending the situation, not smart IMO.
    Negative. I'm talking big picture here, not the just the fist fight incident. If you really want to be smart, you have to take a step back and look at the entire picture. So basically what you just did was make a conclusion about my comprehension without fully understanding my point, which is big picture oriented and not narrow minded Simpletonish as you thought. And that, is not smart.
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  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    So because he heard a fight and called the cops means he can't OC to do his yard work. Sixto pardon me for saying this but that does not make sense. There was no fight he was involved in he simply called police because he heard a fight going on. Calling the cops is not something that should have prevented him from OC'ing the next day, nor does it involve his weapon and method of carry in any way. If I call the cops on someone, I go on about my normal routine, not everyone hides inside when a fight happens and they call the police. Most of us go about our lives afterwards.
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  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post

    As for the LEO lecturing you about his time, respectfully inform him what you do is legal (it is, isn't it?) and that he's paid by you to do his job. Thank him for checking out a potential problem and send him on his way with a smile. People hate being killed with kindness.
    The fastest way to tick off a cop is to remind him that you pay his salary..........I agree with everything else said but it's not necessary to antagonize the officer...........thank him..get your stuff and leave.
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddjob View Post
    I get frisked, he gets my ID and Permit to Carry out of my wallet and again asks "why are you carrying a gun?" I tell him "for personal protection" he says the only reason he carry's a gun is because it's part of the uniform and he can because his is a police officer (in a tone that suggests "how dare you carry a gun"). he then tells me how lucky I am that he didn't have a better description of me because I would've been told to get on the ground at gunpoint. he again asks "why do you carry a gun" I told him again "personal protection.
    A regular Barney Fife for sure...


    As a side note; I would've simply answered the question, " For the defense of my family" The End... If Barney asked again, guess what? Same thing. Any other discussion would result in my informing the officer that, my carry permit should answer most any question you might have as to why I'm carrying a gun. "THE STATE SAID I COULD"

    In closing, It's my opinion; Concealed carry is not overrated.... I've been carrying for 25+ years, and to date have never had to deal with this type of encounter, IWB is your friend from the Barney Fife's and worthless anti gun laaaaoosers.

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  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    So because he heard a fight and called the cops means he can't OC to do his yard work. Sixto pardon me for saying this but that does not make sense. There was no fight he was involved in he simply called police because he heard a fight going on. Calling the cops is not something that should have prevented him from OC'ing the next day, nor does it involve his weapon and method of carry in any way. If I call the cops on someone, I go on about my normal routine, not everyone hides inside when a fight happens and they call the police. Most of us go about our lives afterwards.
    I'm not surprised. Again, big picture.

    Lets lay things out and look at the entire picture. The OP has troublesome neighbors who he expects are dealing drugs. I suspect they are petty dealers due to some of the comments the OP has made, and based on the fact they have no problems drawing attention to themselves. Real dope boys try hard not to draw attention to themselves, especially at the location they bed down.
    Anyway, the fight was the catalyst of the situation. It was a fist fight. No weapons, no guns... a fist fight. Nothing more than annoying to others who had to listen to it. The OP did exactly the right thing to do for that part of the situation. I have no issues there.

    Fast forward to the next day. Things are still "hot" at the complex. Everyone is on edge because of the previous night. The OP decides to OC in that environment for whatever reason. He not only drew attention to himself from the police and neighbors but from the dope boys as well. Like it or not, he just made himself more of a target. He also introduced guns into the situation on two levels. First, what was assumed to be low level fist fighting dealers will now certainly be arming themselves. They see the OP as a threat. Never mind if he actually is or not, that is they way street thugs will see it. They will also look at his apartment as a target. They certainly are smart enough to know where there is one gun there is another. And they talk. Every junky that comes in and out to get served up will now know they can hit the OP's apartment for a quick score. Guns are better than cash in the drug trade.

    But, thats just my humble opinion from being a narc detective over a 10 year period. Take it or leave it.

    I do have two part question for oddjob though and it doesn't have to be answered, just something for him to think about;

    Be honest with yourself... What was the reason you decided to OC a few hours after the incident you described here? I get the distinct impression this is not what you do on a daily basis, so why then?
    Last edited by SIXTO; June 22nd, 2011 at 12:20 PM.
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  7. #22
    Senior Member Array Spidey2011's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I'm not surprised, big picture.
    It's not just him that thinks it doesn't make sense. Big picture or not, he wasn't involved in a fight. I'm not sure what kind of logic you're using, but it sure would be nice if you'd explain it to us simple minded folk.

    IMO, it sounds like you're a little anti-OC, which doesn't really surprise me.


    ETA: I see you have edited your post, and I'll admit it does make a little more sense now, but I don't agree completely. Yes he COULD have CC'ed, but why should he have to change his habits to avoid problems from some small time pothead? If it were me, I'd let the guy do whatever he wants and go about my business. If he calls the cops, so be it. As long as the OP is legal, who cares?

    On the side that your looking at, yes the guy could now know that there are guns in his apartment, but from the side I look at, he could very well know that he has a high probability of being shot while attempting to victimize him. I'll equate it to you seeing the glass half empty, while I see it half full. But I like to take a positive approach to things, and as a strong supporter of the right to OC, I may be slightly more biased than you.
    Last edited by Spidey2011; June 22nd, 2011 at 10:01 PM.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spidey2011 View Post
    It's not just him that thinks it doesn't make sense. Big picture or not, he wasn't involved in a fight. I'm not sure what kind of logic you're using, but it sure would be nice if you'd explain it to us simple minded folk.

    IMO, it sounds like you're a little anti-OC, which doesn't really surprise me.
    No, I'm not anti OC entirely. But, I do expect to win stupid prizes when I play stupid games. I'll never understand why people do things that draw attention to themselves then get upset when they get attention. That part does not make sense to me. If being anti OC means being for using a little discretion, then I guess I'm anti OC. Other than that, have at it.
    I couldn't care less if you or anybody else wants to OC. It makes no difference to me.
    "Just blame Sixto"

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I'm not surprised. Again, big picture.

    Lets lay things out and look at the entire picture. The OP has troublesome neighbors who he expects are dealing drugs. I suspect they are petty dealers due to some of the comments the OP has made, and based on the fact they have no problems drawing attention to themselves. Real dope boys try hard not to draw attention to themselves, especially at the location they bed down.
    Anyway, the fight was the catalyst of the situation. It was a fist fight. No weapons, no guns... a fist fight. Nothing more than annoying to others who had to listen to it. The OP did exactly the right thing to do for that part of the situation. I have no issues there.

    Fast forward to the next day. Things are still "hot" at the complex. Everyone is on edge because of the previous night. The OP decides to OC in that environment for whatever reason. He not only drew attention to himself from the police and neighbors but from the dope boys as well. Like it or not, he just made himself more of a target. He also introduced guns into the situation on two levels. First, what was assumed to be low level fist fighting dealers will now certainly be arming themselves. They see the OP as a threat. Never mind if he actually is or not, that is they way street thugs will see it. They will also look at his apartment as a target. They certainly are smart enough to know where there is one gun there is another. And they talk. Every junky that comes in and out to get served up will now know they can hit the OP's apartment for a quick score. Guns are better than cash in the drug trade.

    But, thats just my humble opinion from being a narc detective over a 10 year period. Take it or leave it.


    Thx for taking time to detail your analysis.
    Last edited by TVJ; June 22nd, 2011 at 09:04 PM. Reason: Strunk & White
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  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I do have two part question for oddjob though and it doesn't have to be answered, just something for him to think about;

    Be honest with yourself... What was the reason you decided to OC a few hours after the incident you described here? I get the distinct impression this is not what you do on a daily basis, so why then?
    Sixto, first let me say thank you for giving me your opinion on all this, you (and others) have a point; it probably wasn't the best idea to be OC'ing but (and here is where I'll answer the first part of your question) around home I usually open carry, I'll grant you that its an apartment building but to me it IS home. most of the neighbors have seen me carrying and not one of them has taken issue with it (I mean this in the context of its no different than "you" (by you I mean anyone) outside working in the yard, washing the car, hanging out etc). When I go out to run errands or whatever, then it is concealed.

    in answer to the second half of your question: my thinking was: there was about a dozen people outside, two of which were fighting. they (or thier friends) will likely see me talking to the officer that shows up, and if they don't have a problem fighting each other, I don't have any chance against more than one of them in a fight should they take issue with me talking to the police.



    I'm not sure if I'm making alot of sense at the moment (kind of a long mind numbing day at work). thanks for the thoughts all, keep them coming. and if anyone is wondering, I'll more than likely start CC'ing most of the time; I think I learned the hard way I don't need the MWAG hassle.
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  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oddjob View Post
    I think I learned the hard way I don't need the MWAG hassle.
    I think thats the point I'm getting at. Why OC in this type of situation? What did OC do positive for you and the entire situation? Would you have been better served CC, looking at the entire picture?
    "Just blame Sixto"

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    I'm not surprised. Again, big picture.

    Lets lay things out and look at the entire picture. The OP has troublesome neighbors who he expects are dealing drugs. I suspect they are petty dealers due to some of the comments the OP has made, and based on the fact they have no problems drawing attention to themselves. Real dope boys try hard not to draw attention to themselves, especially at the location they bed down.
    Anyway, the fight was the catalyst of the situation. It was a fist fight. No weapons, no guns... a fist fight. Nothing more than annoying to others who had to listen to it. The OP did exactly the right thing to do for that part of the situation. I have no issues there.

    Fast forward to the next day. Things are still "hot" at the complex. Everyone is on edge because of the previous night. The OP decides to OC in that environment for whatever reason. He not only drew attention to himself from the police and neighbors but from the dope boys as well. Like it or not, he just made himself more of a target. He also introduced guns into the situation on two levels. First, what was assumed to be low level fist fighting dealers will now certainly be arming themselves. They see the OP as a threat. Never mind if he actually is or not, that is they way street thugs will see it. They will also look at his apartment as a target. They certainly are smart enough to know where there is one gun there is another. And they talk. Every junky that comes in and out to get served up will now know they can hit the OP's apartment for a quick score. Guns are better than cash in the drug trade.

    But, thats just my humble opinion from being a narc detective over a 10 year period. Take it or leave it.

    I do have two part question for oddjob though and it doesn't have to be answered, just something for him to think about;

    Be honest with yourself... What was the reason you decided to OC a few hours after the incident you described here? I get the distinct impression this is not what you do on a daily basis, so why then?

    Sixto, I now understand where you are coming from. Thank you for detailing it so well and articulately, it makes more sense now that you describe it that way and I will try to use the wisdom from your point of view as a starting basis to analyze a situation. Its details and explanations like this from veteran officers like you that really teach me more than anything I learned at my pre-basic or will learn at my academy. I came at it with the wrong perspective and am still having trouble transitioning from regular joe to the state of mind I have to have while working. Had I encountered this from the working standpoint I hope I would see it your way.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  13. #28
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    Oddjob, I'm glad you can see it from a different perspective.

    Sixto, I'm a "big picture" kinda guy, too. I agree with your observations of the scene as presented.

    I'm not one to make a MWAG call if I ever see anyone OC. It's their right.


    So, in the light of "big picture thinking" consider this possibility as the "really big picture."

    Most of us on this forum could be called "conservative" (not just in the political sense). We shake our heads at the folks we see on the people of walmart site.

    Most of us probably don't participate in gay pride parades:


    The other 89% of folks in the country (those that don't carry weapons OC or CC (and some of those 89% are avid gun owners, BTW)) may see those who open carry in the same way we see the people of walmart and those who march in gay pride parades, only DANGEROUS.



    OC is not a bad thing, it does raise the awareness of the public to the R2KBA. Not every permit holder or gun owner is a "GUN NUT, "vigilante," "Whacko militia member," or a "wannabe cop." Most are just interested in doing all they can to protect themselves and their loved ones from the bad things that can happen any day, anywhere. I'd venture a guess that most of us who have permits CC even if it's not required.

    But for average folks, perception is reality... they see a MWAG, they see danger. They see a group of OC, they think "militia, like those WACO Whackos."

    The older ones, maybe they see:


    A little younger, maybe they see:
    mc veigh.jpg

    Nowadays, they all remember this:


    Personally, I have no problem with OC. But the general public (the sheeple, if you insist) does have a problem with it. And, if you think about your reactions to pictures of the people of walmart, or the participants in gay pride parades, maybe you'd "get" where their thought processes are going ,and then attach FEAR to that (rational or otherwise, it's still fear). It's not right.. but it is what it is.
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  14. #29
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    Good discussion and I agree with Sixto. OCing the next day in a "hot area" could easily be seen as trying to stir up something by others.........including alarming the police who would like to see the recent trouble there de-escalate.

    BTW I like OC, but it can be counter-productive at the wrong time.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  15. #30
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    And, if you think about your reactions to pictures of the people of walmart, or the participants in gay pride parades
    Well, if this is the spot where I'm supposed to slap my thigh and laugh out loud about how "weird and scary" those gay pride people are, then count me out. I have no problem with gay people. In my experience, they are generally very amusing and talented and witty and we're better off having them around.

    The people of Walmart, on the other had, very likely are gun owners in many cases. They do bother me.

    Also, in most discussions of OC, it seems that there's a kind of myopia, such that the proponents imagine that if OC is legal, that only good, clean, upstanding middle-class overweight white people are going to carry - and nobody else will. Advantage: chubby white guy.

    They aren't thinking this through. When all the people not in that demographic are also OCing, it starts to make for a rather infelicitous state of affairs.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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