July 10th, 2011 10:19 AM
I simply don't understand OC. I understand it's our Constitutional right and I know why you do it. You're flexing your rights in the face of increasing tyranny and over-reaching government authority. I OC on my property, or at the range.
However, I don't carry my gun 24/7 just to make a statement. I carry it to protect myself in the event of an unfortunate life-threatening incident. One can argue that the obvious presence of your OC gun will deter any incidents, just as one can argue that OC'ers will be the first one shot in any incident. I prefer the element of surprise, and I prefer not to cause a commotion amongst the sheep.
OC also instantly raises the stakes in any "incident". Imagine an argument about something inconsequential with a stranger. First, this would never happen with me, I've learned to not sweat about things that don't matter, but you've now put the other person in a position of needing a weapon after they see yours. Instead of just exchanging FU's, or maybe delivering a well-deserved pop in the nose, you've now got the other person getting a gun and coming back to continue. Hypothetical stretch, I know, but the point is OC does nothing for de-escalation against drunks or other irrational foe. Ask a cop. The Billy Badass routine doesn't work on irrational people.
I also prefer to keep the cops, as good or bad as they inherently are, on my side. If your house or car gets burglarized, or a family member gets assaulted, imagine the assistance you are going to get from your local PD. Zip.
Don't get me wrong, I support your right to OC. I just prefer the gray man approach: plain, un-noticed, unassuming, high SA. One untucked shirt eliminates a lot of problems. It's like a poker game. Are you going to show your pocket aces to the entire table and announce you will win the hand? Or can you maintain a straight face when you flop a flush, and then limp in with everyone betting back to you.
My $.02 FWIW (about two cents). Stay safe.
July 10th, 2011 10:45 AM
Got to second this. Do you have a goal in mind? Would you be content with them just driving by and seeing you and saying, "Oh, it's him, carry on?"
Originally Posted by SIGguy229
As already stated, they have to respond to MWAG calls, so as long as you want to open carry you are going to have to deal with the police. You know this. Also as stated, if you want to change things and you want to stand at the front of the line of that change then you are choosing to accept the consequences of that.... and in that case it means dealing with police officers.
Perhaps if you could arrange a civil sit-down with your local Police Chief or perhaps you could write a civil letter. You catch more flies with honey, you know.
I am all for open carry and have done so myself from time to time, but I do think it has its time and its place. You know exactly what you can do if you want a break from the "harassment".. you conceal. But if you choose to stick your hand in the bees nest don't be surprised when you get stung a time or two. Eventually things may change and OC might be more socially acceptable.. until that time you know exactly what you have to live with and what you can do to change their response. Unless you can find some legitimate legal action (provided you can find a good lawyer and build a solid case) or find some way to change things from within the department, you are pretty much going to get what you've been getting.
July 10th, 2011 11:22 AM
Why not just take a lightweight short sleeve shirt and throw it on and don't bother to button it up.
Your weapon is covered and you still have rapid access to it.
We had LEO's do this all the time driving back and forth to work in uniform.
This covered up their off duty carry and the sleeve patches on the uniform shirt and kept them from being a target while in their POV.
No more MWAG calls and the local LEO's will appreciate you for it.
July 10th, 2011 11:26 AM
I fully intended to read your post, but really--I lost interest about a fourth of the way through. Why? Because your diatribe is so poorly presented became annoying to follow.
Try Using some capitalization on occasion and breaking it up into paragraphs. One long post like that reads like some boring technical manual. If you want people to read your posts, at least make the reasonably readable.
Document the "harassment" and contact a lawyer--or ignore it.
Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
"For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield
July 10th, 2011 11:30 AM
Since you don't want to hear "Cover it up" nor do you want to hear "That's just the risk you take OCing", then I'll offer you the only other piece of advice that will help: MOVE. Try moving to a state or community where no one cares if you OC. I OC a bit and around here no one could care less. If you don't want to move, refer back to the aforementioned things you don't want to hear.
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.
Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.
July 10th, 2011 11:34 AM
Well I understand your assertion of your rights. I know you open carry at your employer. But LEO cannot ignore any MWAG call. So if you go to five different places in town, that probably 3-5 calls they will have to answer on you. That is a meal they could have finished or a domestic violence call they could have kept from being a homicide.
I saw a mention of LEO applicant somewhere in there. If you are considering an LEO career....you seriously need to pick your battles here. That stuff will follow you to any agency you apply to. Doesnt have to be an arrest, your local PD will know it already and consider you to be not worth the trouble. Any other agency will call your local PD and interview your neighbors. Things like "he likes to wak around with a gun out in the open" stick out to background investigators.
You know there are sheep out there and they scare easily, so make it easy on your self and be VERY selective where you OC at. Common sense prevails 99% if you use it.
Friends don't let friends be MALL NINJAS.
I am just as nice as anyone lets me be and can be just as mean as anyone makes me. - Quoted from Terryger, New member to our forum.
July 10th, 2011 12:46 PM
Since as you stated you want to be a cop, cover it up and blend in.
Also paragraphs, proper capitalization, and punctuation are beneficial.
July 10th, 2011 12:47 PM
IMO you should follow his advice and simply cover your firearm so people do not call the cops all the time. I do not think the real problem is that the police "absolutely hate it" when you OC; it sounds to me like the problem is the people who see you OCing. The LEO's are just doing their job.
You ask "Why why why". I think that the answer is pretty obvious, "because you continue OCing although you know very well that you are making trouble for yourself".
I agree with jwhite75, learn to pick your battles. Swallowing your pride is a hard lesson to learn, but it is a very important one.
Originally Posted by AKsrule
Sue the chief and individual officers for what reason? Because they are doing their job?
"The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"
July 10th, 2011 01:08 PM
My suggestion is to write a letter/statement to the precinct Inspector, Chief Dolan, Hennepin Co Sheriff and the Atty General. Explain your various experiences (with dates, times and names). Start a journal for previous and future incidents and, if you still feel you're being harassed by MPD, go get a lawyer. It is our right to carry with a permit (open or conceal) in the State of MN, regardless of any officer's advice, which you may or may not take.
Now, with all that said, I prefer to be prudent. BTW, I open carried yesterday, all day in downtown Mpls, Midtown, Uptown and St Paul - not one issue.
Duty, Honor, Country...MEDIC
¡Cuánto duele crecer, cuan hondo es el dolor de alzarse en puntillas y observar con temblores de angustia, esa cosa tremenda, que es la vida del hombre! - René Marqués
July 10th, 2011 02:03 PM
Life is full of choices. Yours is creating a paper trail. Be a grey man, be discrete, conceal carry or continue to have le contacts.
July 10th, 2011 02:12 PM
If you want to be the at "tip of the spear", you have to expect to get some blood on you.
Which means, any time you attempt to change the status quo, you'd better expect hard times.
Thicken up and learn to deal with it or quit doing it.
I would rather stand against the cannons of the wicked than against the prayers of the righteous.
AR. CHL Instr. 07/02 FFL
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July 10th, 2011 02:21 PM
A quote from your other thread.....
" i guess im still skeptical to believe that im not the ONLY one OCing hahaha i swear ive never seen a single soul other than myself. and im out and about with my 7month old son everyday whether we walk to the parks or go to a sporting good store or the lake...i just never have encountered another like myself." (quote) JoeGlockStar
Joe that should tell you something right there about the climate for open carry in your area.
July 10th, 2011 04:54 PM
It is legal here in Tennessee to OC also. Other than the range or gun shop, I have yet to see anyone OC in public. It is my understanding that law may have passed so there's no penalty if you accidently flash your weapon. If it's legal you're within your rights to OC, however, IMO I think it is foolish if you're carring a weapon for personal defense. In this world today I don't want to attract any unwanted attention. If I wanted some personal attention I believe I would open carry. Unless and until the public and LEO'S become much more accepting to CCW issues and 2nd Amendment Rights, I'll keep mine well hidden thank you very much.
I think, therefore I am...
July 10th, 2011 05:23 PM
Like many of the things we argue about on this board, the statistics just don't exist. I've never seen any statistics that shows likelihood of being targeted for your gun vs. likelihood of deterring a crime. Hopefully, somebody will compile some statistics on this at some point. Unfortunately, even when statistics materialize (such as the one on caliber effectiveness) it will get picked apart and nobody will agree on its validity. So at this point, when it comes to controversial topics you'll just have to go with what your gut and previous experience tells you.
Originally Posted by archer51
July 10th, 2011 06:02 PM
Stick to your guns, Joe. (no pun intended)
The Twin Cities, Minneapolis in particular, need this type of exposure as there are far too many liberalized whiners around who tend to get their way. (Governor Dayton, anyone?) I'm currently sticking with CC, but would like to think that I'd be able to deal with the loopiness of some of the LEO's if I take the OC road now & again.
I'll have to look for you next time I'm at the Robbinsdale location.
"Historical examination of the right to bear arms, from English antecedents to the drafting of the Second Amendment, bears proof that the right to bear arms has consistently been, and should still be, construed as an individual right." -- U.S. District Judge Sam Cummings, Re: U.S. vs Emerson (1999)
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