Why why why

This is a discussion on Why why why within the Open Carry Issues & Discussions forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Canav844 Congratulations, you proved to me that you dont what your responding too... my internet typing and lack of grammar online is not unlike any ...

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  1. #61
    New Member Array JoeGlockStar's Avatar
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    Canav844 Congratulations, you proved to me that you dont what your responding too...
    my internet typing and lack of grammar online is not unlike any and most online writing.
    your horrible psycological analysis of me actually OCing to make a statement and just cause trouble is completely off par. you suggested that im actually doing it for political reasons just because i say that im not? im a psycology grad. ive taken more psych classes and seminars than i care to count. you have the wrong idea of me as a person. im a normal hardworking family man that ONLY carries openly for the tactical advantage it presents to me. if you think otherwise than your just being a keyboard wizard, becaus you dont know me. you have the completely wrong picture of me in mind.
    also, as to my alleged "fame" on the internet as you worded it...i dont claim to have any fame WHATSOEVER at all. i simply stated that im a member of many forums like such and not even a big one, just a member.

    as for the police having my phone number, if you have a permit to carry, they have your phone number...unlesss you lied or simply didnt put it on your application which i tried and its required.

    i apologize for my use of the word "bragging" that was taken out of context at my own fault. i meant it as such "people saying that they do it all the time" and me not seeing it. i understand your adding your 2 cents, but your also painting me as a person that im not. and ive said it already ill say it again, i am NOT looking for ANY attention when i OC. as you can recall since your so good at reffering to my other posts, youll see that i commented on how ive actually pretended to be on the phone in mcdonalds just to not have to respond to people asking questions about my gun. maybe you missed it. i open carry for 1 reason and thats just for the ease of access to my weapon. a person who did it only for attention and whatever else would probably not carry if they did away with OC. i would still carry daily. i also GUARANTEE i carry more than most people. not just my 8 hours at work or few hours before and after, i carry ALWAYS even at home right now or at any part of the day i always have some kind of firearm on my person. even when i walk the laundry down the hall. even when nobody else is around to possibly see me or my gun. so its downright ignorance only that you say im doing it for any kind of attention.

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  3. #62
    New Member Array JoeGlockStar's Avatar
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    i lived 22 years of my life in youngstown ohio. the worst place for violence in the country and the highest murder per capita for many years running, just recently lost. i have had 3 occasions on my own property where ive had to draw firearms on armed felons. once tresspassing in my garage armed, once a drunk driver that plowed thru my deck, once when a ex girlfriend decided to send some braveheart to beat me up. i never drew those firearms from holsters. only from bedrooms or a table...but i have had many many many hours and days and weeks of training in multiple organizations on CC wear and gear and also military gear such as what your used to. for one example so i dont have to type a million reasons why your comment is WRONG about the similiar time frames in drawing from CC or OC, i want you to simply run a tueller drill with a commonly used CC holster and cover garment, and run it with a OC rig and tell me that theres not atleast a 1 or 2 even 3 second difference.

    my training you have asked about is above and beyond most normal permit holders. ive trained with some real professionals in ohio including members of blackwater(newyork) and career marines and swat officers and US marshals that took ample time to teach me many things.
    as for drawing and manipulation of my firearm in ANY situation i would bet i have more time on purpose built training ranges than yourself. maybe not ACTUAL COMBAT since your in iraq, but training scenarios. from advanced training in vehicles, to being taped up to simulate injuries and staged on a million dollar purpose built training range, live fire. yes i can shoot weak hand, yes i can reload with my weak hand and 2 fingers/teeth. im not a rookie to this world at all.

    as for my writing skills...this is the internet, not the declaration of independence. if anyone here has trouble understanding my phrasing and writing, they have a serious issue.
    also i dont mean to be rude im just tired of all the negative feedback ive gotten about how im this and that when people have no idea. which i thank you for realizing as you said you dont know me personally. ive been thru alot of training that most people wouldnt dream of attending. this thread went off topic very quickly. but just to answer your post, yes im well rehearsed in multiple situations. where as there are people on this actual thread trying to trump me who have attended simply just a carry class. i enjoyed your post thanks for the input man.stay safe in the desert god bless. thanks !

  4. #63
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    I guess I was wrong.




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  5. #64
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Geez..... I'm sorry , well... no I"m not.... what a bunch of bad advice and bad statements ... from the attackers posting here.

    What ? Do you think the gun is going to jump out of the holster and shoot someone, or his son ?? Give this to me again, why shouldn't he carry ? Either concealed or not, who cares.... it makes no difference to his son being there other than the LEO's stopping him, and that is the LEO"s issue... not his. It is LEGAL.

    I grew up where guns were often open carried , and it was nothing for me as a very very young kid asking people "what kind of gun is that one ? " Whoppeee, I sure never saw anyone shot nor harmed in any manner as a result.

    If you aren't going to carry it while you have your son, aren't going to protect your family ?

    Maybe I'm missing something, but it sounds like a bunch of BS.

    Open carry, charge on, and it's not going to create "irreparable harm" to your kids mental stability, unless you are doing something weird, pulling it out and twirling it around, etc.... he's watching what you do and will repeat .

    If you are all for conceal carry and not for open carry, and don't want to exercise your right to do so, then I recommend getting off the backs of those that do. And, I conceal carry except when I"m on my farm or other property... but, I"ll stand up for the rights of those that do open carry and can.

    He's not making this an issue, the Police and the sheep are.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  6. #65
    Senior Member Array canav844's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by canav844 View Post
    If that's not what's going on here, then I'd suggest before hitting the submit button that you take a look at your posts to see if such indicators are in them.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeGlockStar View Post
    Canav844 Congratulations, you proved to me that you dont what your responding too...
    I've highlighted a portion of my post for you; I am explaining the perception, or how you are coming off in your posts, and suggesting you rethink the manner in which you are posting if that's not how you're intending to represent yourself. 90% of communication is non verbal (something to also keep in mind when OCing that you're communicating with the sheep even if you never look at them), and even more is lost when it comes down to raw text. Take some extra time, type something out, do something else for a few minutes come back and reread your post before hitting submit, maybe you'll edit some details, that would make you come across as you're intending, and the rest of just wouldn't be responding with "jibberish" because we'd understand you better. And I'm not saying be a grammar stickler, this sure isn't English class, but even your starting the use of paragraphs is making your posts more organized and easier to read, and the closer you get to typing to the crowd in a normal format the more we'll be communicating on the same level and the less interpretation will need to be done to understand what is being said. The simple placement of a comma can be a huge change in meaning.

    And am I not responding to someone who, feels alone and can acknowledge they're doing something out of the ordinary for personal reasons, that they have the right to do, is very aware of the attention this action has brought them? I've been OCing more lately simply because the heat index has been over 110 all week, but when I OC I'm prepared for what that means to the rest of the world and inherit hassles, but I still suck it up and CC when it's not something that I want to become an issue, using my discretion while in the process of exercising my rights. I'm not saying that the world perception should that way, but I am aware of the diversity of the population and considerate of others; because while I'm always going to make sure me and mine get home at the end of the day and a hance to live another day, I'm not interested in making everything about me and sometimes that what happens when one goes against the grain. I must say though I feel a little out of the loop not knowing the FLTEC got moved to Ohio.
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  7. #66
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    Ok for the 3,999,999,999th time I am not against OC if it works for you great. But once again all this is in a state that has no actual law addressing OC and it seems that it ussually causes problems for those that do.

    Eagle the only thing I stressed was that unless he had the training to manipulate his weapon while holding/carrying or with his son he needs to get it or carry in different manner or not at all until he does.

    Joe as to your training if it is factual more power to you. You have obviously reached a highly skilled level in your weapons handling. In regards to your Teuller drill comment if there is that much difference in your times you need more training. In regards to your internet status mentioned by others googling your screen name and checking other forums brings up some interesting results but that is neither here nor there folks can check on their own.

    As I said I don't know if there is an answer to your dilemma other than cover it up and deal with LEO's the best way you can. I am out of this one guys.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  8. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by JoeGlockStar View Post
    i also practice as such...situational awareness is the most important thing to consider when open carrying. which i believe myself to be very good at. so in theory, nobody should ever be close enough to "take your weapon" without you knowing. so if somebody can get that close to you, without you knowing their intention and being fully aware of them, you should NOT be carrying concealed or openly. people dont realize that the biggest part of carrying is SA. so getting my gun from me is a slim to none chance. and i wear a BUG also that is concealed so if someone grabbed my gun they better be pretty quick on the trigger and put me down fast
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeGlockStar View Post
    Canav844 Congratulations, you proved to me that you dont what your responding too...
    my internet typing and lack of grammar online is not unlike any and most online writing.
    your horrible psycological analysis of me actually OCing to make a statement and just cause trouble is completely off par. you suggested that im actually doing it for political reasons just because i say that im not? im a psycology grad. ive taken more psych classes and seminars than i care to count. you have the wrong idea of me as a person. im a normal hardworking family man that ONLY carries openly for the tactical advantage it presents to me. if you think otherwise than your just being a keyboard wizard, becaus you dont know me. you have the completely wrong picture of me in mind.
    also, as to my alleged "fame" on the internet as you worded it...i dont claim to have any fame WHATSOEVER at all. i simply stated that im a member of many forums like such and not even a big one, just a member.

    as for the police having my phone number, if you have a permit to carry, they have your phone number...unlesss you lied or simply didnt put it on your application which i tried and its required.

    i apologize for my use of the word "bragging" that was taken out of context at my own fault. i meant it as such "people saying that they do it all the time" and me not seeing it. i understand your adding your 2 cents, but your also painting me as a person that im not. and ive said it already ill say it again, i am NOT looking for ANY attention when i OC. as you can recall since your so good at reffering to my other posts, youll see that i commented on how ive actually pretended to be on the phone in mcdonalds just to not have to respond to people asking questions about my gun. maybe you missed it. i open carry for 1 reason and thats just for the ease of access to my weapon. a person who did it only for attention and whatever else would probably not carry if they did away with OC. i would still carry daily. i also GUARANTEE i carry more than most people. not just my 8 hours at work or few hours before and after, i carry ALWAYS even at home right now or at any part of the day i always have some kind of firearm on my person. even when i walk the laundry down the hall. even when nobody else is around to possibly see me or my gun. so its downright ignorance only that you say im doing it for any kind of attention.
    Quote Originally Posted by JoeGlockStar View Post
    i lived 22 years of my life in youngstown ohio. the worst place for violence in the country and the highest murder per capita for many years running, just recently lost. i have had 3 occasions on my own property where ive had to draw firearms on armed felons. once tresspassing in my garage armed, once a drunk driver that plowed thru my deck, once when a ex girlfriend decided to send some braveheart to beat me up. i never drew those firearms from holsters. only from bedrooms or a table...but i have had many many many hours and days and weeks of training in multiple organizations on CC wear and gear and also military gear such as what your used to. for one example so i dont have to type a million reasons why your comment is WRONG about the similiar time frames in drawing from CC or OC, i want you to simply run a tueller drill with a commonly used CC holster and cover garment, and run it with a OC rig and tell me that theres not atleast a 1 or 2 even 3 second difference.

    my training you have asked about is above and beyond most normal permit holders. ive trained with some real professionals in ohio including members of blackwater(newyork) and career marines and swat officers and US marshals that took ample time to teach me many things.
    as for drawing and manipulation of my firearm in ANY situation i would bet i have more time on purpose built training ranges than yourself.
    maybe not ACTUAL COMBAT since your in iraq, but training scenarios. from advanced training in vehicles, to being taped up to simulate injuries and staged on a million dollar purpose built training range, live fire. yes i can shoot weak hand, yes i can reload with my weak hand and 2 fingers/teeth. im not a rookie to this world at all.

    as for my writing skills...this is the internet, not the declaration of independence. if anyone here has trouble understanding my phrasing and writing, they have a serious issue.
    also i dont mean to be rude im just tired of all the negative feedback ive gotten about how im this and that when people have no idea. which i thank you for realizing as you said you dont know me personally. ive been thru alot of training that most people wouldnt dream of attending. this thread went off topic very quickly. but just to answer your post, yes im well rehearsed in multiple situations. where as there are people on this actual thread trying to trump me who have attended simply just a carry class. i enjoyed your post thanks for the input man.stay safe in the desert god bless. thanks !
    It's late here and so I'm going to apologize in advance if any of this comes off as preachy. It is not my intent. I don't do confrontational and if you stuck around (which I hope you do) you will find I have a reputation around here for being one of the more gentle members on this forum. The goal of my posts is never to insult but to help perhaps gain a little perspective and maybe answer a question or just add something beneficial to the thread. A bunch of negativity will never do that....

    All that being said I've highlighted some of the statements you've said from some of your posts that are giving me pause.

    I'm no psychology major. I won't try to make any kind of psychological judgement of you. All I can go on is what you post in this forum and other public information you've put out there about yourself (including pictures of you and your son who is darned cute, by the way).

    But from what I am reading and from where I am sitting I have to ask a question: Just who do you think you are? Who are you trying to impress? AND PLEASE.. do not read that as it is usually said. I ask this earnestly and without attitude or sarcasm.

    You are young. From what I can tell even younger than I am and I'm a kid! I have had a lot of training as well from many reputable sources. I've learned a lot and one thing that keeps getting pressed upon me with every class I take and every scenario I run is that I don't know everything. In fact, I don't even know what I don't know! Every class I take makes me more and more humble about my abilities (or lack thereof).

    Another thing I've learned is that I'm human. I get tired. I have moments of weakness. I trip. I get things in my eyes. I can't tell you the license plate numbers of every car I passed on the way home. I, too, have a child and there are times I'm sopping up chocolate milk from the floor while hooking my leg around my 2 y/o while also trying to balance trays of food and I DON'T notice the guy who walks up behind me. I do not have eyes on the back of my head. I get surprised sometimes. I consider myself to have very good situational awareness but I am not perfect and neither is anyone else. I'm pretty sure that means you aren't either.

    Most of the people I respect greatly on this forum have decades of experience acting on what we can only practice. Some of them have gotten into gunfights. Some of them have taken bullets. Some of them have given them. Some of them are even living with the demons of having had to have taken life. When they COLLECTIVELY say, "This is a bad idea," or "This is a good idea," or "You might want to try this," I listen to them because they've lived the lessons they are trying to teach.

    So when you come here and say (without saying) that you know better than they do I have to stop and evaluate what I KNOW to be wisdom and experience vs what someone might THINK to be wisdom and experience.

    I've run the Tueller drill from OC from CC with knives, with rounds chambered, with rounds unchambered, with movement, with no movement. Is OC faster? Maybe (depending on a lot of factors).. but by one whole second much less 2 or 3 seconds? Not unless you seriously fumble your draw.

    Do you shoot IDPA? If you don't you should consider looking into it. In the matches I have been able to attend some of them are from concealment some of them are not. If you were to put a shot timer on my draw/fire times concealed vs unconcealed you would probably see very little variation between them. Some of my concealed draws might even be faster depending on the stage and just how quick I happened to be that day. I think if you took them all and averaged them up they'd be about the same.

    OC is legal here with a permit. I could carry openly if I chose and if I thought there was any huge advantage to doing so I would do it. If I saw any evidence to suggest it was more advantageous I would do it. If I was taught by even two seasoned/trusted instructors that it was better I'd probably consider it. But it's simply not the case.

    Some people just open carry. I get that. I support it. But I don't believe it is some huge tactical advantage over concealed carry. For that matter I don't necessarily see how either have a huge tactical advantage as scenarios are so fluid and unique. When you throw everything into the mix (bad guy knowing or not knowing you have a gun, ease of access, type of holster, your mood, his mood, the humidity, the exact encounter, distance from threat, number of threats, training, response time, deterrence, escalation of force, strength and the kitchen sink) there might not even be a difference between the two other than sheer, unadulterated preference of the carrier.

    All I know is that I don't want to draw the unwanted attention to myself. I have enough to worry about with a two year/old on my hip than talking to curious people or police officers. You've said in your posts that you don't want the attention either.

    But you are demonstrating a very ... how shall I say it.. "LOOK AT ME!" type attitude from other things I've seen in your posts. You want all of the attention to stop but you aren't willing to stop the action that is drawing the attention. A little counter-productive, perhaps?

    "I've lived in the worst part of town.. I've had to draw guns on people... I carry more than most people.. I've had more training than most people.. I've taken psych classes... I've trained with career Marines.." (which, by the way makes me kind of giggle as most of the Marines I've had in the ranges I've worked at are the worst shots with pistols I've ever seen and have the biggest egos (and I say that with all the love in the world having married a Marine and having attempted to serve in the Marine Corps myself))...

    You aren't unique here. I know you probably weren't trying to make it sound like you were something special and, as stated, I'm not trying to bust your chops but this forum is packed with people who train as often as they can possibly even more than you do. Most of the members here carry as often as their eyes are open. They don't just live in bad neighborhoods they patrol them. They ARE the SWAT officers and Marines you claim to have trained with. They are lawyers and psych professors and firearms instructors. When they say you have an advantage here and loose advantage here or should try this or that they aren't just whistling dixie.

    A wise carrier/shooter/student/individual would not throw their hands over their ears and say, "I'm not listening," S/he would seriously consider what these people have to say and heed the advice.

    So, if it REALLY TRULY is not a "statement" with you, what would it hurt you to TRY to conceal it a time or two just for a break from the drama? If that is TRULY what you want and you were sincere about it, you would at least consider it a valid possibility instead of thinking everyone who points it out to you as insulting.

  9. #68
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    tacman605, google answered a lot of questions. A lot. Thanks for the heads up.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #69
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    Limatunes I mean this with all the respect in the world when I say.......

    "You are the man"

    Google is my friend Bark'n
    limatunes likes this.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  11. #70
    Senior Member Array canav844's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Google is my friend Bark'n
    Google also reminded me gecko45 OCs in the Minneapolis area all the time, and after seeing his Colt R0933 around the mall folks shouldn't be batting an eye at a mere handgun. But I digress....

    Also I'm curious how much thought is given to dress in this matter, not even professional/unprofessional, but hiding in plain sight, a Black Glock will disappear against dark clothing much easier than a shinny 1911, yet a lighter gun will blend better with whites and light tans, most people tend to walk around with tunnel vision and if it doesn't jump out they're far less likely to notice. Concealed, not covered?

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  12. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by canav844 View Post
    Also I'm curious how much thought is given to dress in this matter, not even professional/unprofessional, but hiding in plain sight, a Black Glock will disappear against dark clothing much easier than a shinny 1911, yet a lighter gun will blend better with whites and light tans, most people tend to walk around with tunnel vision and if it doesn't jump out they're far less likely to notice. Concealed, not covered?
    I practiced this often while living in VA while you still had to OC at that time when in places that served alcohol for consumption.

    I still practice it when going to play groups or kids events where I'm expected to be active and might have a concealment slip. I still wear a cover garment but a dark shirt and darker pants with my black holster and Glock. There have been times I've had to reposition my cover garment but no one (to my knowledge) has noticed my firearm. At least they haven't said anything about it.
    Last edited by JD; July 14th, 2011 at 09:38 AM.

  13. #72
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    +1 to what Lima said.

    I will also reiterate if the difference between your OC to CC draw is slower than 1 second (even thats a lot IMHO) then you're doing it wrong.


    Here is something else to think about... You mentioned an application for a LEO, maybe you should consider their "advice" as a test. On the job you may be asked to do things you may not like (like respond to a MWAG call ;))but will be expected to do, why would they hire a guy who can't follow a simple bit of advice? Having repeated encounters with the police isn't going to look good when they review your application. Trust me the scrutinize EVERYTHING. Also what is the off-duty carry policy for the departments you have applied for? You may have your hand forced to conceal should you get hired.


    I will add, even though this is the internet and and informal forum, all we see are each others words and presentation means a lot on getting a message across. We don't need to write like we would for a doctorate dissertation but I think sentence structure and spelling go a long way for credibility.
    "I got a lot of problems with you people!" - Frank Costanza

  14. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIXTO View Post
    SO just one question... What basis would you use for your lawsuits?
    Yes, any single incident like the one mentioned might not be a problem, or would be minor enough that it didn't amount to a case. If a lawyer were considering taking this, he/she would probably look for a long string of incidents that, when taken in total, adds up to a pattern of unwarranted stops or intrusions over time, out of all proportion to the justification of "checking things out".

    On the other hand, if there have been calls (from citizens) that prompted all or almost all of the incidents, then you might even say the cops are trying to be as nice as possible to the OC'er, while still "responding" to citizen's calls. They might feel they at least have to be able to say, "Yes, we checked it out and everything is ok," if they are asked what they did about any MWAG call. (In that case, the lecture -- however inappropriate -- would be just to try to lighten their own call load a bit.)

    'Course, the person taking the MWAG call could ask a couple of questions to make things simpler. One officer I talked to here said he used to race to any MWAG call, but now asks what the man/woman with the gun is doing, including what he is doing with the gun, before he gets excited. If the man and the gun are all legal, according the the caller's answers, and nothing red-flags, then I'd guess things are briefly explained to the caller and that usually takes care of it. I suspect that this has simplified officers lives somewhat, and avoids burning a lot of LEO time on fluff.

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Limatunes, I stand and applaud everything you stated. And, agree 100%.
    I am so glad you posted what you did, the way you did it, because I was going to post something similar, except, it would have gotten me another infraction , lol.

    To the OP; young man if you don't wise up, you will find in the garden of life, you will have a long row to hoe. Stop trying to be something your not.

    True knowledge is the realization that that you don't know half of what you think you do.
    Ignorance is a long way from stupid, but left unchecked, can get there real fast.

  16. #75
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    I believe that open carry invites this type of reaction...that is why I CC all the time...... no need to advertise...I am not a cop
    "A free people ought to be armed." - George Washington

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